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Ziggy's Instinct Test


Lindsaloo
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We went out to do Ziggy's herding instinct test this morning and immediately he showed strong interest in the sheep, but the whole time he was in the pen he remained in an upright position. He might've lowered his head a little, but he remained upright for the most part. The trainer said that he herds like her beardies and that he'll most likely always herd like that. So my question is, basically is this true and is there anyway to encourage him to go lower while herding. When we play at home he is constantly crouched down and stares at the ball so hard I think he might stare a hole all the way through. I've searched everywhere I could find for information, but thought maybe you guys would have some first hand experience with this issue. Also, what are the advantages and disadvantages of both styles on sheep and cattle? I plan on trialing him if all things proceed well enough. Thanks a ton! :D

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It doesn't mean he will always be upright. A small pen sometimes encourages "non stylish" behaviour.

 

You can create more style by doing some driving on a line. But then again, some dogs are always a little more upright. Stock react differently to every dog, stylish or not. With lots of eye (usually quite stylish/crouched) a stop or down may be easier to get, the get up may (depending on the amount of eye) be more difficult.

 

With an upright dog the down can be disconcerting to stock becuase they will pop up to their full height after a down.

 

You can't really tell until a few more exposures

 

Good luck

 

cynthia

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also if the trainer was setting things up for constent motion it will encourage upright movement. The crouch and drawn down is a manifestation of the dog trying to get closer to the stock while remaining in control while causing little to no motion, sometimes you have to set it so that the dog gets the feeling of having everything under control, let it move alittle and then be in control again and soon you will see the typical border collie type of action.

 

If the sheep are used to be worked by upright dogs they probably are not going to help your dog discover how to control them as they being the sheep, may be in the habit of being in perpetual motion and not responding as honestly as they could to the presence of the dog.

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When working cattle and sheep we will see our dogs adjust in their stance, when working sheep they will be more catty and low as they are trying to control the stock by adjusting pressure from within, basically sucking back and in to help slow and ease tension. With cattle we don't see it so much, the dog may be more upright until the dog needs to apply more pressure at that point we will see some stance change. Cattle are far less sensitive to the pressure that the dog emits so you tend to see less adjustment in the dog.

 

I hope that made sense.

 

Also, if you are interested in trialing with your border collie you should consider getting together with a trainer that is training border collies specifically and has demonstatrated the ability to develop them based on the highest level of competition and working ability based on the traits that make the border collie different from other breeds of working dogs. Even spending a day with a breeder that trains their own dogs who also competes at open level USBCHA competition can be an eye openner when it comes to the difference in dogs along with techniques used to help develop a good useful border collie that you can also trial.

 

 

When we first became interested in trialing we worked with a trainer that specialized in upright breeds, much of what we were encouraged to do was counterproductive when trying to develop a border collie and actually inhibited us from advancing the dogs or recognizing the dogs true strengths and weaknesses.

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If you have a little time next weekend and Kansas City is not too far from you Thad Fleming is hosting a benefit trial at his place in Leeton, MO it is just east of Kansas City a piece. It would be an awesome opportunity to meet handlers from around the midwest and see some neat working dogs. They will be running novice, pro-novice, nursery and open classes.

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Thank you all so much for your help. I must admit, I'm a little overwhelmed. I have been trying to learn all that I can about herding so that I could give Ziggy the best of chances at being awesome. I never had any official herding training, just kind of winged it with my previous dogs. And to top it off, I've never worked sheep, just cattle. Anyway, please bear with me as I try to comprehend everything. The sheep were actually pretty still, although the one kept stomping her foot at Ziggy which ticked him off a little and led to some rather manly barks. I looked into other trainers in our area, and the closest one I could find was about an hour away. So I don't know if that's a possibility or not. I live about 2 hours north of KC in Omaha. I'll see if I can make it down there for that, it sounds like it would be a great place to learn and goodness knows I need to do some of that. Lol! Would we need to bring Ziggy? I don't know how those things work, is there a website with more info maybe? Ziggy is 10 months and I don't know what style his parents exhibit, but I emailed the breeder this morning so hopefully I'll find out soon.

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Best with the heat that we have been having would be to just come yourself, that will also give you the chance to watch and visit without worrying about what Ziggy is doing.

 

Also, when it comes to training and lessons, working with someone many hours away on occassion that specializes in border collies can actually be more productive then going to lessons weekly or even twice a week with someone that does not work alot with border collies. A rule of thumb is to work with people that exhibit the ability to train and use dogs in the manner that you agree with or view as the way you envision is right, this is the same rule that I use for purchasing dogs/pups. Unfortunately in order to maximize your expirence you have to have a visual of what you feel is ideal. There are some videos here on the boards that demonstrate both young dogs just beginning their training on through trained dogs, Denise Wall has posted some good ones. Here is a link to them: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=24963

 

 

Something else that is really helpful is to take the opportunity when ever possible to just work with livestock yourself personally without the dog. The better you get at reading and understanding the livestock the easier training goes as you are in all reality teaching the dog how to handle livestock via what you allow the dog to do. So, in the case where the sheep were stomping their feet at your dog you should have made certain that your dog was positioned so that the sheep had somewhere to go, so many times the sheep can't go anywhere, turn and stomp their feet and the handler thinks that the dog needs to put more pressure on, well there is still a problem, the sheep have no where to go. Just move to the left or right and ths sheep are more then happy to vacate the place they are occupying. Now, when they do decided to move off you have to be certain that the dog allows them to go and does not then give them mixed signals, mix signals lead to opposition and fights. Can also really ruin a dogs confidence as the sheep continue to challenge the dog.

 

There is so much opportunity to learn when it comes to border collies and how they are capable of handling/relating to livestock. The quest for knowledge and understanding can be all consuming and understanding livestock and how livestock responds to pressure is a major piece of the puzzle.

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I am betting I know who you went to if you live near Omaha. I would also recommend going to a Border Collie person. It would be worth the drive.

 

How a dog works during an instinct test may not be an indicator of how they will end up. Being in a round pen gets some Border Collies super jazzed.

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FYI, Thad posted on Sheepdog-L that the trial (Leeton FFA?) had been cancelled due to the heat and dry weather.

 

Dogs that are more naturally upright can be encouraged to show more eye and style by working them on smaller groups or singles. But that's probably not something a newbie should be attempting.

 

In general, working smaller numbers will increase eye (and therefore elicit more of the stylish behavior) and working larger groups will reduce eye and allow for more upright behavior. <--These are generalizations, of course, but true enough that if you really are worried about whether your dog is stylish, you can work on that.

 

Many people like upright workers and dogs with less eye because they tend to fight you less over some things (because you're not having to deal with breaking the eye contact).

 

At any rate, though, I would worry so much about the stylishness or lack thereof of your dog. You can't tell a whole lot from one exposure to stock, and as he gains experience and confidence his working style might change.

 

I agree with the others regarding going to a trainer who works with border collies and is successful at the open level. If that's where you want to end up, then you may as well start out right!

 

J.

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Ann Witte in Springfield is who I went to, the other trainer I was talking about is Bruce Nelson in Greenwood. I haven't contacted Bruce yet, but according to this website I found Ann on Bruce says, "All breeds, specializing in Aussies, BC's, Kelpies". I will most definitely be going to see Kathy Knox if she's in CB! That's awesome, thank you so much for the information! It's been so hard for me to find anyone around here to help me and Ziggy get the training we need.

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I found another trainer and thought I'd throw his name out there in case any of you know anything about him... Terry Workman. His farm is in Bennet, NE which is just outside of Lincoln. He owns and specializes in border collies so that's one step up right? :D

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