gcv-border Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 OK, I am not sure I am asking the right question so let me explain why I am interested in getting feedback: Recently, I have heard of 2 BC rescues which became aggressive in their adopted homes after a few months. Case 1: One dog (less than 1 year old?) came from a farm where he was chained without much interaction, was in a foster home for about 5 months to learn to appreciate human interaction (being petted, simple commands, toys, etc.) and was reportedly very happy and interactive with no indication of aggression. He was adopted into a home and a few months later bit (puncture wound) the granddaughter and also bit (puncture wound) and snarled at his foster parent who had come to retrieve him. Case 2: Dog (1-2 years old) - back history not known - was in foster care for about 4-6 weeks where he was very happy, and friendly to both other dogs and people. Again, after a couple of months in his adopted home, he is beginning to show aggressive protective tendencies according to the adoptive mother. She will be consulting a dog behaviorist to try and 'nip it in the bud' as there are 2 children in the family. Beyond these simple facts I am not privy to much more information - except that both dogs are neutered males, the dog in Case 1 reacted to and bit his foster parent as if he were a stranger (no indication of their previous relationship), and one of the children in case 2 is 5 years old. I do not know how the adoptive parents handled their dogs - i.e. was there lack of training and too much permissiveness?, did the dog become alpha in his own mind? and how did that happen?, was the aggressiveness linked to previous experiences before landing in foster care?, is there a genetic component involved?, etc. These questions and more have been running through my mind. Because I have begun to foster a dog here and there, I am interested in learning more about what may be happening in situations such as this. I want to learn if there are any warning signs I should be watching for when considering if an adoptive home will be a good fit for the foster dog. (note that both dogs were fine in their foster homes, but began their aggressive behavior in their adoptive homes. In both cases, the aggression has been said to be 'protective' based on the information I heard.) I would be interested in your opinions regarding any aspect of this issue - why this occurred, how to prevent it, etc. Thanks, Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 I think it can depend on how you are defining the aggressiveness. I am no professional, and I look forwards to the answers given here, but in my experience 90% of the time biting behavior is learned as a reaction to underlying fear and frustration...the dog earns that the only way to make his point is with his teeth. Is he biting to prevent something scary from happening? Is he biting because he wants something and has decided force is how you get it? Is he biting because he thinks that's how you react to a stranger approaching you? Most dogs I see acting "aggressively" are fearful and bite when they feel they are backed into a corner. Are they normally fearful? Probably not...in other words they have a fearful temperament or were not adequate socialized (or both). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 I think it can depend on how you are defining the aggressiveness. I am no professional, and I look forwards to the answers given here, but in my experience 90% of the time biting behavior is learned as a reaction to underlying fear and frustration...the dog earns that the only way to make his point is with his teeth. I agree with this. Dogs communicate through growling. Sheesh, we do to. But when people hear a dog growl for whatever reason, they tend to get a bit startled by it and the dog usually gets what they were looking for - a little more space, to be left alone, etc. It works, so it is repeated. IMO, "protective" aggression is usually fear-based or resource guarding. So what is the dog afraid of? Why is it resource guarding? What kind of pressure or expectations were placed on it in the adoptive homes? If the dog needed 5 months to be taught to enjoy human interaction, then that is probably not the type of dog I'd really want to have around young children. Also, what do most people do when they get a new dog? they show it off and assume it will automatically fit right in with their family. They often don't give the dog a chance to decompress and learn about it's new situation before it needs to deal with it. Yikes. My favorite rule of thumb is keeping everything very low key for a new dog for 10-14 days. Then start in with basic OB taught in a rewarding manner. Then after you've built a bit a rapport with your new dog start showing it off/introducing it to new situations, etc. But I highly doubt most people do anything like this. New dog isn't 100% sure about the situation, isn't %100 sure about who he can trust (and obviously no one if he's repeatedly put in situations that he can't handle), so he eventually takes things into his own hands because he's not equipped to deal with it in any other way. That said, if one of my dogs would be resource guarding and growl at me, I'd probably grab them by the scruff of their neck, take the object away (BTW, don't do this unless you're confident in it - I'm pretty sure that I'd do it without even thinking, but if you're not confident you're going to get bit), figure out a NILIF routine and then not put the dog in a position to resource guard from me again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjohanna Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 I'm not sure I would consider this 'aggression' either. It sounds to me, based on the very limited description given and of course knowing neither dog, like the dogs were acting defensively; perhaps without good reason for that, but once a dog gets screwed up by neglect or lack of socialization or other factors, the fight-or-flight impulse seems to take over and in a domestic setting, flight is pretty much impossible. In the Sheltie rescue that I work with, we might very well have classified those dogs as fear biters, because they will resort to teeth when they feel trapped or can't get away. The dogs might be fearful by nature or they might be that way because of past treatment, but they definitely sound like they are afraid. I also agree with previous poster(s) that resource guarding is definitely something to be managed in any dog, and a dog who has had a stressful life early on may never entirely overcome the tendency to guard. My solution to resource guarding is obedience work, and a dog who is put on a sit-stay will watch me remove whatever the object is that is the 'bone of contention' and will then be released, with praise for the sit-stay and perhaps a treat. I don't react physically because the dog's already stressed and tense, and increasing that stress will at some point blow up on me. No dog who doesn't have a bomb-proof temperament should be around kids regularly. I know that's not a popular view, but the Sheltie rescue I help will not adopt any of their dogs to a home where there are children under 6 years of age, and will not adopt any dog who has a fearful nature or who has been mistreated to a home with kids at all. Such dogs are not reliably able to control their reactions when they are startled by the noises, movements, etc. of small children. Personally I don't believe in the alpha theory, and IMO dogs don't come to see themselves as alpha -- they come to feel insecure and uncertain, and as another poster said, backed into a corner. Dogs who are truly confident and secure are never the dogs who bite the kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted October 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Thank you rushdoggie, Maralynn & cjohanna. You have provided me more to think about as I ruminate on these sad situations. I wish I knew more specifics about what happened. I had also wondered if the aggression was more of a fear-aggression rather than a protective aggression as presented. I can see the dog in Case 1 biting the foster parent (with whom he previously had a good relationship) out of fear if the guy came at him and reached for his collar. The explanation for biting was that the dog was protecting the adoptive owner.??? It also makes sense that an undersocialized dog (Case #1) should not go to a home where he is exposed to children too often unless the adoptive owner is very aware of the potential problems and is committed to further training and socialization or to limiting interaction with children until the dog is comfortable around them. Maralynn, you make sense when you say that many people don't allow a new dog to decompress and gradually integrate into their new situation. Instead, people are so excited to get a new dog that it is a total immersion experience for which the dog may not be equipped. Just to be clear, it is my belief the neither dog showed fear aggression or resource guarding in the foster home. The problem behavior began in the adopters' homes. This could due to the fact that the dogs were not put into uncomfortable situations while in foster or maybe the foster parents missed some subtle behavioral clues while the dogs were in their care. I know that these situations occasionally happen in rescue, but the fact that I heard of two within a week made me start thinking about what happened, why did it happen and how it could have been prevented. Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjohanna Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I can see the dog in Case 1 biting the foster parent (with whom he previously had a good relationship) out of fear if the guy came at him and reached for his collar. The explanation for biting was that the dog was protecting the adoptive owner.??? Honestly, I don't think dogs conceptualize like that. If the foster parent had slugged the adoptive owner, the dog might have reacted by biting the foster parent, but that's not necessarily a Superman-type response, it's more likely the dog being whammed (figuratively speaking) by all the emotion and reacting. Reaching for a dog's collar can unleash (pardon the pun) a whole lot of associations and memories for the dog, in many cases. My Lapphund would shy away from me when I reached for his collar for months after I adopted him: he had been tied out by his last owner, and had also, from the information I have, been grabbed by the collar rather than called. He had NO good associations with human hands near his collar. In the Family Dog classes that a friend of mine teaches, she spends an entire session on "Gotcha!", which is a game teaching the dog that it's fun to have its collar grabbed. It's lighthearted, involves a lot of treats, starts quite gently and only gradually progresses to the kind of grab that a stranger or a child might do. Collar grabs are followed by bites often enough that this is an important thing to teach! I would think it likely that the dog in question was already stressed and on the verge of panic, and the collar grab just put him over the edge. I'm really sorry and I hope things get worked out for both dogs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I had also wondered if the aggression was more of a fear-aggression rather than a protective aggression as presented. I can see the dog in Case 1 biting the foster parent (with whom he previously had a good relationship) out of fear if the guy came at him and reached for his collar. The explanation for biting was that the dog was protecting the adoptive owner.??? Who gave that explanation? It's rare that a dog bites to protect it's owner. It happens, but not nearly as much as the general public would like to fantasize. Usually dogs are just resource guarding or stressed in some way. With a dog already having other issues in the home, I totally would not buy the "protecting it's owner" idea. I would buy the idea that the dog was stressed out, had gotten a bit used to the idea of aggression working when he was stressed, foster parent comes in, reaches for him and in his mind "I'm stressed out, what do I do?" and BITE. I'd go out on a limb and guess that both homes needed dogs that were pretty bomb proof and ended up with dogs that had a few minor issues and weren't prepared to deal with those. I'm not big on all the "alpha" terminology, but I think it is true that an owner needs to actively take on the role of a leader with a dog, especially ones with a few issues to work through. These dogs thrive on routine and understanding what is expected of them. They love a solid, benevolent leader and without one they can get a bit unsettled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I'm not big on all the "alpha" terminology, but I think it is true that an owner needs to actively take on the role of a leader with a dog, especially ones with a few issues to work through. These dogs thrive on routine and understanding what is expected of them. They love a solid, benevolent leader and without one they can get a bit unsettled. I'm not big on "alpha" theory either, but I do think that dogs who are bred to control stuff try to control stuff when their human isn't controlling stuff. And by "control" I mean clear boundaries. I'll take it a step further when it comes to placing rescues into homes where they start to be 'aggressive.' I think that rescuers are better at managing dogs and better at communicating with them because they do it all the time, and when these dogs go into less capable homes, they start to display behaviours that they didn't or would't in a home where they didn't feel they had to. I think anyone here who is good with dogs has has an experience where they took a dog from someone where it was behaving 'badly' and found they didn't have any problems with that dog. It works the same way in reverse. It's not so much the dog as the handler. RDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted October 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Who gave that explanation? It's rare that a dog bites to protect it's owner. It happens, but not nearly as much as the general public would like to fantasize. Usually dogs are just resource guarding or stressed in some way. With a dog already having other issues in the home, I totally would not buy the "protecting it's owner" idea. I would buy the idea that the dog was stressed out, had gotten a bit used to the idea of aggression working when he was stressed, foster parent comes in, reaches for him and in his mind "I'm stressed out, what do I do?" and BITE. OK, I can see that - as both cjohanna and Maralynn had a similar reaction. The idea that the dog was biting to "protect" his owner was part of the explanation that was provided in the story of the dog. I wondered how something like this happened so rapidly (within a couple of months) of moving into an adoptive home. I found it a little hard to believe the "protective biting" explanation which was why I was asking here for opinions of experienced BC owners. It seems more reasonable to me that it was the result of stress. I have a rescue dog (Sheltie mix) that I adopted when she was 3 1/2 years old. That was 10 years ago. She was obviously dragged around by her collar. To this day she still shies away from me if I take her collar to lead her somewhere. She leads on a leash fine, but if I don't have a leash and try to direct her with my hand on her collar, she freezes and resists. We have played "Gotcha" also which helped a bit, but I admit, I probably didn't do it enough since I don't have many occasions to grab her collar so I seldom am reminded that she doesn't like it. Jovi Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I think I agree with previous responses. Without knowing particulars, it sounds like the foster people had the experience and savvy to manage these dogs and get them going well. But, just like sending a horse out for 30 days with a trainer, if the animal doesn't come "home" to the same consistency and atmosphere as it was trained with, it can start to regress to undesirable behaviors. In these cases, my hunch is that, as someone said, the new owners may have tried to just bundle the new dogs into their families and treat them like "ordinary" dogs. What these dogs in fact may have needed was a continuance of the sort of structure and order the foster homes had provided. The very fact of a new dog nipping a 5 year old suggests that the new owner may have gotten a bit lax, or perhaps simply lacked the skills to wholly maintain the training, socializing and preventative measures that dog may have needed. In short, the new owners may simply have been too quick to presume these dogs were "fixed" and ready for a regular life. I hope the end of these dogs' stories will be positive. ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 . . . i.e. was there lack of training and too much permissiveness?, did the dog become alpha in his own mind? and how did that happen?, was the aggressiveness linked to previous experiences before landing in foster care?, is there a genetic component involved?, etc. These questions and more have been running through my mind. You might want to get hold of a copy of Patricia McConnell's "For the Love of Dog" and read the sections on fear and anger. I think that would give you quite a lot of insight into these questions. I know that's kind of a "feel good" title that sounds like a lot of fluff and stuff, but it is actually quite a substantial work, including treatment of the subject from a biochemical perspective. At the same time, it remains very readable. If you do want to check it out, make sure you get Patricia McConnell's book. Apparently there is another book of the same title by someone else that does not cover the same subject matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I'll take it a step further when it comes to placing rescues into homes where they start to be 'aggressive.' I think that rescuers are better at managing dogs and better at communicating with them because they do it all the time, and when these dogs go into less capable homes, they start to display behaviours that they didn't or would't in a home where they didn't feel they had to. I think anyone here who is good with dogs has has an experience where they took a dog from someone where it was behaving 'badly' and found they didn't have any problems with that dog. It works the same way in reverse. It's not so much the dog as the handler. RDM I think this is a most logical explanation. The fact that both dogs started having problems several months after going to their new homes says to me that there was a management issue of some sort in the new home and not necessarily a real problem with either dog. The dog that bit the foster was probably already stressed and aroused. I'd be interested to hear if that dog went back to being his "normal" self once back with the foster for a bit. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Added to this: when you are not as experienced of a dog owner you may read things poorly. 20 years ago I had a hard-headed Golden. So often I felt she was a spiteful turd...she snapped at me a couple of timesand bit my ex husband on the hand once. I was sure then that she was bossy and pushy and aggressive at times, but when I look back now I can see the video in my mind and realize she was actually scared and defensive to my anger and reacting in the way she knew how. I know more now than I did then. Poor Roo, she would have benefited from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted October 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Thank you for your thoughtful replies. This discussion has helped. I felt bad about the situations these two dogs found themselves in through no fault of their own. I believe that the adoptive owners were doing what they thought was best for a dog - i.e. giving it love, food, shelter, playtime, cuddles, etc. Unfortunately, they were not aware enough to realize that there should be some training, some boundaries and that they were probably putting the dogs in stressful situations without realizing it. When I first heard the stories of these two dogs, I felt that there had to be a difference in management between the foster homes and the adoptive homes. What I couldn't understand was why they were being 'protective' (as described in the 'incident report') within a month or two of being placed in their new home. As discussed here, I realize that the aggressive response is more likely due to stress. I had heard of Patricia McConnell's book and considered purchasing it. Now I will. Neither dog was my foster. I now have a new appreciation for careful matching of dog and adoptive home - i.e. it may not be a good idea to place a poorly socialized dog, no matter how friendly he seems to be, in a home where children can be present unless the new owner will take measures to deal with continued socialization and to prevent possible stressful situations. I think that these two situations also point up the importance of follow-up after adoption. It might not always work because sometimes people don't tell you the truth about what is going on or they may truly not know what is happening, but at least you have tried. Thanks again, Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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