Twisp Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Twisp is approaching on six months, I took her to her first sheep lesson, she showed no fear! I was very thrilled about her excitement at first, then she ran a sheep into the fence. The poor thing was running so fast it knocked itself over and was bleeding from the nose. Startled a little, shortly after we decided Twisp was too amped up to continue. After the session I emailed my trainer and asked how she thought Twisp did. I am extremely interested in herding but know nothing because this realm is completely new! Below is her response. She did good. I feel we need to wait another 2 months before trying again. She was in prey mode not herding by the end and the flag brought out more of it. Not a big deal...just needs a bit more maturing. I have seen with dogs(BC'in particular) I call them tweakey dogs. Some need a lot of guidance to help be the good dog they can be. So my question to you experienced and experts is, does her feedback and reaction during her first experience mean that she will be difficult to train and is not an "ideal sheepdog?" What would be the characteristics that indicate whether or not a dog will be good for sheep herding? I can't wait to read your responses! Thank your for your time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 IMO, and I'm a novice, 6 months is very young. I don't think you can tell anything about how a dog will end up, after seeing their first time on sheep. If your trainer thinks giving her another couple of months to mature is the way to go, I'd agree with that. She's still too young for much serious training and pressure, anyway. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Reading the response it does not sound like one from a trainer that specializes in border collies but instead someone that works predominently with other breeds, but I may be misreading. The term "tweakey dogs" bothers me and makes we wonder if this person understands what makes border collies tick. Be certain that the trainer you select has trained and worked with border collies to the high level that they were intended for. It will increase the chances of getting a fair evaluation of your dog and it will also ensure that your dogs expirences on livestock are both fair to the dog and to the livestock. We started with other breeds, things we did out in the round pen with those dogs and the livestock would drive the border collies nuts, often times it's not the dog but rather the method of approach. Examples of a high level of work can be found by viewing videos from the National Finals, the International or from trainers/handlers that are handling their dogs in a simular fashion, there are also some good videos in the video section of this discussion board. You don't want to mistake videos promoting instinct testing or low level herding title earning as examples of good work either by the dog or by the trainer. Here is a link to a thread from these boards, they will give you a good place to start when comparing what you saw this past weekend to what is on these videos: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=24963 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildFlower Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I agree with Paula. 6 months is too young, in my novice opinion, to seriously or regularly start to train a dog to work stock. But be careful.... It is seriously addicting! It sounds like you are really interested in learning so I would suggest picking up a book or two to help you understand stock work better. I really liked Vergil Holland's book, Herding Dogs: Progressive Training or Bruce Fogt's book Lessons from a Stock Dog. ETA: I'm glad Debbie pointed out finding a good trainer is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I second the recommendation for Vergil Holland's book. Great stuff for a newbie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 It might also be helpful to go out to your trainer's (or any sheep raising friends) and just learn about sheep. You'll be one step ahead if you understand sheep behavior before you try to start a dog on sheep. If you go out and move sheep around by yourself and pay attention to how they react to you trying to move them around, then you will start out with a better understanding of pressure, where a dog might need to be in order to influence sheep, and so on. When the human understands something about livestock behavior, the learning curve for both human and dog is less steep. I also agree with the suggestions to find a trainer who understands and has trained working border collies to a high level. Another important consideration is whether the person is a good teacher, or at least the sort of teacher you can learn from. You must also be comfortable with the trainer's training methods. If you care to mention where you're located (general region), some of us may be able to give you suggestions regarding good trainers. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc soul sista Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Well you're probably going to get a range of opinions of course, but generally not much of anything can be told at this point...I have rarely met a border collie who wasn't intersted in chasing sheep..it really doesn't mean anything.. I had a well bred pup I brought up that was an absolute ALLIGATOR at 4 months old!! Would put him up for a month..try him again..same..would put him up again..same..he ended up in a pet home.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthfieldNick Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 My young dog, just 2 yrs in August, showed very little interest in sheep until he was 7-9 months old. He wasn't mentally ready to handle training until 14 months, and at 20 months, he had a brain fart and I pretty much put him up for a month. He's back to learning rather nicely now. 6 months is really young, and every dog matures at its own pace. Early reactions don't mean much sometimes. His first time out, Hoot was more interested in the dog holding the sheep than the sheep! Now, he'll work anything. Given your dog's names, I'm wondering if you're in WA. If so, there is a healthy working dog population here (all over the NW) actually, and we can point you to a trainer, or to someone who might be willing to trade chore help for you to learn about sheep without a young dog distracting you. A number of folks also have older dogs you can learn to work before you start your pup. Lest BC soul sista's response worry you, a friend of mine has a pup affectionately known as "the barracuda" because she was certain sheep were there to be chewed to bits. Pup was put up for a bit, tried again, etc. One day, said pup turned into a sheepdog and settled down. So they do change sometimes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Reading the response it does not sound like one from a trainer that specializes in border collies but instead someone that works predominently with other breeds, but I may be misreading. The term "tweakey dogs" bothers me and makes we wonder if this person understands what makes border collies tick. Be certain that the trainer you select has trained and worked with border collies to the high level that they were intended for. It will increase the chances of getting a fair evaluation of your dog and it will also ensure that your dogs expirences on livestock are both fair to the dog and to the livestock. My first thoughts, also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixx Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Given your dog's names, I'm wondering if you're in WA. If so, there is a healthy working dog population here (all over the NW) actually, and we can point you to a trainer, or to someone who might be willing to trade chore help for you to learn about sheep without a young dog distracting you. A number of folks also have older dogs you can learn to work before you start your pup. I live in WA and know the OP quite well. I too would like info on trainers and such around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Welcome to the forum! I will also echo the thought that 6 months is way too young to get a solid assessment of a pup. The line between prey and play is pretty thin at that age, and the true working instincts may not really kick in. Personally, I don't look for a BC pup to show me what he's got until he's at least 10 months old, possibly 11 months. With a really high-drive pup like you describe, I'd opt for waiting until he's old enough to handle and understand the pressures of training. Give your pup at least 4 months before trying again. It will be easier on him and you. And I'd also be sure to find someone who knows and works border collies. I have no clue what "tweaky" means, but a 6-month old, high-drive BC chasing sheep is nothing new. He's just too young to know what to do with those instincts. Anyhow, I'm not sure where exactly you are, up there, but Diane Pagel is up near-ish Seattle, and she's on this forum. She's a very well-respected trainer. Patrick Shannahan and Dianne Deal are over by Caldwell, ID, and of course they are excellent border collie people. I'd recommend any of those folks for you. ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twisp Posted October 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 When the human understands something about livestock behavior, the learning curve for both human and dog is less steep. If you care to mention where you're located (general region), some of us may be able to give you suggestions regarding good trainers. J. Thank you for your suggestions, I had not yet thought about it being beneficial to lean about livestock, but it make so much sense to. I appreciate you bringing this to my attention! I live in Olympia, Wa....it would be great to find out more information as to who is in this area and into herding! I as well will investigate but if you know anyone please feel free to inform me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twisp Posted October 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Thanks for everyone re-assuring me that six months is too young to tell. I am going to wait a few months before trying it out again, in the meantime I will be researching as you all suggested and getting myself ready to be a good partner/trainer to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthfieldNick Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Fido's Farm is in Olympia. They have sheep for all levels of training, and host LOTS of good clinics with well-respected handlers. If you're not on their email list, I think you can sign up on their website. I believe they have other dog activities, as well. Yes, they are involved in some ACK stuff (I think), and that doesn't fly with some folks, but they are a good place to learn about stokdogs, and the clinicians they host are successful USBCHA handlers. If you're already going to Fido's, then you're on a good start. You should check the trial schedule on the USBCA and WA Assoc of Stockdog Handlers and OR Sheepdog Society sites. There are tons around the are. Most of the winter trials are just training trials (and the weather often is less than great), but you can usually still come and meetvpeople. Just contact the hosts- everyone is super friendly. The PNW is loaded with great handlers who are also great teachers. The stock dog community here is really supportive and welcoming. I've only been trialling for a few years, and I don't trial that much, but I've made some great friends. There are several board members who are very active triallers, so let us know if you're planning on coming to a trial! I'll send you a PM later, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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