Shoofly Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Glad you liked it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted October 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 So in a week we are going to a brand new place to practice and in tow weeks to a trial. So this is my planned strategy, assuming there are no other important reasons to choose away or come-by. I will send Bonnie 'from the heel', on the same side on which the set out person stands. Such a choice will help push her out, I hope. Plus if she does slice in nonetheless, coming from the direction of the set out person she won't end up pushing the sheep towards the set out person, which should help straighten out the ensuing chaos sooner. Does it sound reasonable? Of course, this is a strategy until she learns to feel comfortable with the set out team. I don't think the presence of the dog makes a difference much. I think the human makes the most difference (I hope I am right). It seems that her less comfortable side improved well enough (as seen int he last vid). Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEC Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 So in a week we are going to a brand new place to practice and in two weeks to a trial. Maja How did the trial go? As I read through the above thread, I was rooting for Bonnie all the way. Hope her Outrun and Lift are better, and that the trial went great. Lots of good advice already provided. I like Donald McCaig's thought (above): "To some extent a correct outrun is the result of pattern training. The more often the dog does it correctly, the more likely it will do the outrun correctly next time". -- Donald McCaig Border Collies instinctively outrun/fetch, but most do not start-out with one that will get many points at a trial. I see you are doing 150-200 yd outruns. In the event a dog back-slides on the quality of the outrun, or is getting its initial training, and you are finding the dog tends to cut-in at the top, rather than bending-out and around as approaching the sheep, try to incorporate pattern training into the dog's curriculum. One way to insure the dog does the outrun/lift correctly in training is to shorten the outrun (as already suggested), as well as moving your position between the dog and sheep, but closer to the sheep than to the dog. Have Bonnie down/stay, say 20-30 yds from dog-broke, steady sheep, and move your position to about 10 yds from the sheep. Give her the cue to flank. In the event Bonnie tries to slice at the top, you can then move a few steps toward her, with perhaps a firm "get out", to remind her to go wide. Put yourself at the point in Bonnie's outrun where she tends to begin cutting the corner. It's important not to stop the dog or cause it to turn toward the other flank with this manuever. Generally letting the dog run a step or two beyond your position, before correcting it, will allow the dog to continue with the outrun/lift, yet still get wide at the top. From your description, Bonnie may do the approx. 25 yd outrun almost perfectly. If so, lengthen the outrun 10-15 yds and repeat, always remaining for training purposes between dog and sheep. The theory is to insure nearly every outrun/lift is correct, and that will make it more likely Bonnie will do it properly next time. Gradually and steadily make the outruns longer, as Bonnie does them correctly, while moving your position closer to the dog. This procedure can take a couple of training sessions or more to get the outruns back to your current long fetches. Take your time and don't hurry. Hey, best wishes, and keep the discussion group posted. -- Kind Regards, TEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 An OR can be trained, and unfortunately not all dogs, even Border Collies have a natural outrun. What cannot be affectively taught is a dog's feel for the stock. From my experience a dog with poor/no feel will need tons of work on the OR, often needing extra commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted February 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Thank you for the advice and rooting for Bonnie . At the trial, Bonnie did the end of the outrun rather badly (forgive the understatement ), but all the other dogs did worse yet, such as crossing over or stopping at 9:00 and going straight in, or freezing at 3:00. So overall Bonnie did the best out of the other 4 dogs even though she was the youngest and the least trial experienced, and she won the trial :lol:. Tada! I was completely dumbfounded when they announced the results. But everything else she did very well and in the way that the judge liked. She told us beforehand she does not like the dog to be over-corrected and Bonnie did very well that way, and she was super obedient, thinking and she enjoyed it. So thank you for all the advice. After the trial, I wrote to Amanda in the "ask the expert" section to clarify and consolidate all the advice into a training plan for the next season. I think I was right thinking Bonnie knows how to do the outrun but blows it for a reason that is absent at home. It was apparent at the trial where she suddenly started kicking out on the flanks too far and I had to invent a pull-in right there. Up until that time tight flanks were her problem when we were away from home and beautiful flanks at home. And now the situation at home is: 200 yards easy outruns, good lifts, no problems. Away from home - even 100 yards outruns and she cuts in. So I am going to concentrate on stopping her from cutting in in new places, and, at the same time, not widening her out at home. Because otherwise she will start going too wide when the stuff learned at home kicks in in hew places. As it was with the flanks at the trial. She settled in after a while and was ok but for a moment I thought she was going to leave the Czech republic and visit Slovakia too . (But she did do a lovely pen with a wide flank, it was weird - probably totally unorthodox - but my buddies were impressed ) The only thing is I haven't yet had the opportunity to practice away from home since the trial. It's too cold. But I have things set up for spring in a few places and things are looking really good, and I am very excited about the upcoming season. Oh, and a week before the trial I went to a new place, where she kept cutting in regardless of the distance, even very short. Finally at the end of our practice, she fell back to 'working at home' mode and widened out good. So when we start going to new places again I am going to begin with very, very short outruns in order not tot let her cut in, and gradually extend the distance. And we will practice with the set out team of course. But now it's so cold the sheep are locked up.,the LGD sleeps in the house, I am busy sewing patchwork, and Bonnie is on vacation whether she likes it or not . My own impression is that I really need a lot of mileage in trialling - I could feel this very acutely that my handling was not good, I am constantly late with commands or make wrong decisions all the time. And practice is not the same as competition. So I am going to go to as many competitions as I can (not that there are really so many opportunities ). Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEC Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Thank you for the advice and rooting for Bonnie . At the trial, Bonnie did the end of the outrun rather badly (forgive the understatement ), but all the other dogs did worse yet, such as crossing over or stopping at 9:00 and going straight in, or freezing at 3:00. So overall Bonnie did the best out of the other 4 dogs even though she was the youngest and the least trial experienced, and she won the trial :lol:. Tada! I was completely dumbfounded when they announced the results. But everything else she did very well and in the way that the judge liked. She told us beforehand she does not like the dog to be over-corrected and Bonnie did very well that way, and she was super obedient, thinking and she enjoyed it. Maja From what you describe, Bonnie has excellent potential and is doing a lot of good things. Hey, and you won ;-D Way to go. I've been there, and it's a weird feeling...once left the trial early after a couple runs, pretty upset with myself and my dog, in order to take care of some things at home, only to receive a call to come get awards. As you know it is common for a dog to not run up to their normal standards under the stress of trial conditions. Bonnie is young, you are gaining experience, therefore, as you have said, more miles at varied training facilities and trials may make all the difference in the world. That term "mileage" is used so much that it is cliche'd, but I use it in the sense of getting lots of training experience, yet at the same time insuring that you have set-up the training scenarios so that Bonnie can't do it wrong, and putting yourself in a position (literally being near the dog) to enforce doing things correctly. IMO it is critical for a trial dog to stay off the sheep, and Bonnie is doing that. Now, when the dog starts crossing country borders some judges may believe that the dog is not maintaining contact with the stock, so that he/she is not in a position to control them, and score accordingly -- not to mention thorny passport issues and international relations At practices, you probably have already considered commands such as "here" or the opposite flanking command to pull-in Bonnie's flanks. Our evening TV news commented on the hard winter Europe is having. Stay warm. The US Northwest is having a well-deserved moderate winter after a couple severe ones. Bonnie looks nearly perfect in the video's you posted, so it is hard to believe she stresses at trials, and tries to slice-off the corners at the top. OTOH it's not unusual for a young dog. You are on the right track, already thinking about and planning your practices. -- Kind Regards, TEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill virginia Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 that video of putting sheep in a dog house was great. i would like to send it to some folks that have BC. May i have your permission???? Please reply to this in your posting "An outrun and lift question." bill from Virginia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted February 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 that video of putting sheep in a dog house was great. i would like to send it to some folks that have BC. May i have your permission???? Please reply to this in your posting "An outrun and lift question." bill from Virginia I will be very happy to share it of course . TEC, Thank you for your encouragement. I am definitely planning to get Bonnie on the right track before I go to any trial. The first one I have scheduled is July 22. If she can't do a decent outrun by then, there is something wrong with me . Before it got so cold were worked on whistles and and bend-out and pull-in commands, which turned out easier than I thought, but then why am I surprised, "Gee, the Boss wants me to closer to sheep, yay!" Bonnie cuts in mostly because of the set out person. Bonnie is very biddable and the presence of a person with the sheep blows a fuse in her brain -my fault for not knowing about the fact that the set out team affects a dog. Here is the outrun at the trial -100yrds (followed by a 200yrd outrun at home): Best wishes, Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia P Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Maja, the outrun at home was good. One of the things you might try to teach bonnie is to approach the sheep more politely at the lift. Instead of bounding up, she should walk out. It'll make the sheep move out nicely and things wont' get too out of control. I do this by allowing the dog to walk up if they are correct, but lying them down if the dog is not walking up nicely. it's not that you don't want this faster gear, you want the first meeting of the sheep to be done with calm presence... LOTS of young dogs have trouble with set out people. shorten it up and have someone hold for you cynthia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEC Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Thank you for your encouragement. I am definitely planning to get Bonnie on the right track before I go to any trial. The first one I have scheduled is July 22. If she can't do a decent outrun by then, there is something wrong with me . Bonnie cuts in mostly because of the set out person. Bonnie is very biddable and the presence of a person with the sheep blows a fuse in her brain -my fault for not knowing about the fact that the set out team affects a dog.Best wishes, Maja Something is telling Bonnie to flatten at the top. You may be right that the presence of a set-out person and dog is doing it. Her video training at home is as expected for Bonnie...wide and deep on the lift. It makes practice more involved/difficult, but having a set-out person may pay big dividends at trials. I don't know why sheep are often set-out at competition closely framed by the same fetch panels that are used by other trial levels. I see it done frequently. In my estimation, the dog, as he/she approaches, sees the sheep with panels on each side, and makes a decision to go in front or behind them. The panels shown in the video may be disturbing Bonnie, as well. I agree with your thinking that it will serve Bonnie well to get her accustomed to trial conditions: both a set-out person/dog, and I suggest sometimes framing sheep with fetch panels. A personal pet-peeve I have is that at many US trials there is a semi-circle of cars/trucks/stock-trailers around the set-out point, which can mess-up and distract dogs who are not used to seeing a parking lot at the top. Anyway, IMO it is sensible to get a dog used to what it may see at trials. You will have a good deal of time available before your next planned trial, so try to avoid a pattern, and mix it up for Bonnie. Start-out with panels, set-out dog/person, and vehicles (if those are present at trials you attend), but begin varying the presence of distractions quite early-on. Training the distractions all the time can have the same effect that always training without them can have. Bonnie will just expect a certain set of conditions, and may become confused when they are not present. Using fairly dog-broke sheep, starting the outruns short, and by putting yourself between sheep and dog (but nearer the sheep), will allow the handler alone to hold the sheep. I suggest progressively lengthening outruns, while at the same time moving your position closer to dog. When near the top, you can use your position and verbal encouragement to widen Bonnie's outrun/lift, and fix the sometimes seen cutting-in. It is easy to decide to make big jumps in distance, but avoid the temptation. Since you have various training facilities available, it may be a good idea as the distances progress up to approx 60-80 yds, that you begin training away from home, where Bonnie's lift troubles are more prevalent. Take your time in training, and relax. Let Bonnie and your own intuition tell you what is right. It is my belief that outrun training of the type described, if not done in short segments, can become tedious for dog and handler. Keep it fun and upbeat, and don't over-do any particular training session. No matter what progress has been on outruns/lifts, after 10-15 min's of it, go on to some other element of training, like drives. I can't tell you how many training days my dog and I have essentially lost, by pouring-it-on-heavy for the trial in the month or two prior, and attempting to move faster than me or my dog was capable. Many times after the competition, whether we did well or not, we had to go back home and again do the same training in a more relaxed, orderly, progressive manner. You've got a wonderful dog, so don't put excessive pressure on yourself. -- Kind regards, TEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted February 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Thank you both for all the input. It's been very helpful and I will keep you posted on our progress. Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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