BC_Tigger Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Hey everybody! Just wanted to say hi and get to know some of the board's regular posters. I live in sunny southern California and very recently got my first Border Collie. I've wanted a BC for a looong time, so I'm happy to finally have my little Tigger. Also happy to have found this board. Just got through reading the little statement of purpose topic and am ecstatic to find an actual forum that isn't stuck on breeding/buying only AKC conformation champion dogs. Blah. My pup comes from working dogs who live on a 2000 acre ranch and they herd a variety of different animals. They don't compete, but they work. Not entirely sure what I want to do with Tigger, but I'm thinking about obedience and rally obedience. Possibly agility. And luckily for us, a friend of mine has a small hobby farm with goats, so it would be fun to take him over there to learn how to work the goats a bit. Anyway, I also have a question about dew claws. He has them on his back feet, they were never removed. Weren't removed from the front either, but that's a bit more common. I asked the breeder about that and he said he's never had any problems with them having dew claws on the back. Is this the general experience here as well for those who's collies have back dew claws? I could have them removed when I get him neutered, but I haven't decided whether I want to do that or not. I think his back dew claws are kinda cute, but if they commonly do cause issues, I'd rather remove them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I only take off dew claws when they are really, really loose - essentially just connected by skin. The more firmly attached ones I leave on, as they are less likely to get ripped off in work or play. It's also a lot more painful for them to recover from when the dews are on there good and tight. I just keep them well trimmed. Having said that, I have not seen a lot of border collies with rear dew claws over the years. There are definitely some, but most of them don't have them. Who takes off front few claws? That sounds awful! RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I only take off dew claws when they are really, really loose - essentially just connected by skin. The more firmly attached ones I leave on, as they are less likely to get ripped off in work or play. It's also a lot more painful for them to recover from when the dews are on there good and tight. I just keep them well trimmed. Having said that, I have not seen a lot of border collies with rear dew claws over the years. There are definitely some, but most of them don't have them. Who takes off front few claws? That sounds awful! RDM AKC show people. Not all, but some. From the AKC standard for the Border Collie: "Forequarters Forelegs should be parallel when viewed from front, pasterns slightly sloping when viewed from side. Because sufficient length of leg is crucial for the type of work the breed is required to do, the distance from the wither to the elbow is slightly less than from the elbow to the ground and legs that are too short in proportion to the rest of the body are a serious fault. The shoulder blades are long, well laid back and well-angulated to the upper arm. Shoulder blades and upper arms are equal in length. There is sufficient width between the tops of the shoulder blades to allow for the characteristic crouch when approaching and moving stock. The elbows are neither in nor out. Feet are compact, oval in shape; pads deep and strong, toes moderately arched and close together with strong nails of moderate length. Dewclaws may be removed. Hindquarters Broad and muscular, in profile sloping gracefully to the low set tail. The thighs are long, broad, deep and muscular. Stifles are well turned with strong hocks that may be either parallel or very slightly turned in. Dewclaws should be removed. Feet, although slightly smaller, are the same as front." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 RDM, its a very common for breeders to have front dew claws removed. The thought is they get ripped off. Probably some working dog breeds started the trend because dogs working in heavy brush probably did get dew claw injuries. Then, it became the norm for all breeds and for many is a sign of if the dog came from a "good breeder" because "good breeders" remove dew claws and "backyard breeders" don't. The dew claws were considered not essential and it was better to pre-emptively remove them. If you buy a dog from a conformation breeder it will likely have them removed. After a while, some people who did athletic things with their dogs noticed that dew claws were actually useful, and so many people who breed dogs for various works, or sports, don't remove them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 RDM, its a very common for breeders to have front dew claws removed. The thought is they get ripped off. That's disgusting. I've never in my life met a dog without front dew claws. Them things is on there good and solid. I can't even imagine. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Wick doesn't have dew claws, so yeah, you've met one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_Tigger Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Thanks for the replies so far! Nice to meet everybody. RDM, yeah, it seems to be more common in conformation circles to remove the dew claws. I'm with you though. I don't like removing or altering parts for cosmetic reasons or for the sake of a standard. I had an adult boxer I fostered with a docked tail and removed dew claws and I could tell the tail especially bothered her. Lots of tension from the scar tissue. Don't know if it was because it was docked improperly or what. Thank god they left her ears alone. I've never had front dew claws removed from any of my dogs. I actually don't know of a single incidence where they have caused a problem and got ripped or torn, not in person and not in the 6 years I've been on various dog forums. The only issues I've heard of were from neglecting to keep it trimmed right. On the other hand, I have been shown well captured pictures of dogs doing agility where you can literally SEE the claw helping to provide traction on a tight turn. It was pretty cool. I've noticed my own German Shepherd using the claws to help hold a Nylabone or other chewy upright so she can chew on it better. I'm just unsure of these back ones because it doesn't seem to be quite as common for dogs to have dew claws on the hind feet. Might have to consult a few other dog forums just to get some more opinions and experiences. I wouldn't want him to get hurt, but at the same time I don't want to cause him unnecessary suffering by having them removed if they're not likely to cause issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 On the other hand, I have been shown well captured pictures of dogs doing agility where you can literally SEE the claw helping to provide traction on a tight turn. It was pretty cool. I've noticed my own German Shepherd using the claws to help hold a Nylabone or other chewy upright so she can chew on it better. Yup. I trimmed some nails tonight and on the 2 dogs who have them I found dirt on/under them. I'm just unsure of these back ones because it doesn't seem to be quite as common for dogs to have dew claws on the hind feet. Might have to consult a few other dog forums just to get some more opinions and experiences. I wouldn't want him to get hurt, but at the same time I don't want to cause him unnecessary suffering by having them removed if they're not likely to cause issues. Working in various veterinary offices and groomers, I have known dogs with rear dew claw injuries, but at this point if shes got them, and they are firmly attached (vs just hanging on by a skin tag like RDM said above) I'd choose to leave them alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 My oldest dog, a 10 year old Icelandsheepdog/border collie mix has huge double, loosely attached dew claws on his hind feet. Though having taken him on trail rides, sheep gathering trips etc, difficult landscape with the kind of vegetation/surface that is not easy on dogs feet, I have never experienced any trouble with them. My feeling is that it is a cosmetic thing to remove them (especially the ridiculous obligitory removal). Funny thing is that there is an icelandic supersticion that dogs with double dew claws make better stockdogs, you encounter this belief even to this day (amongst the old timers that is). This has had the effect that you find a lot of double dew clawed individuals amongst the Icelandic sheepdogs (Not an expert on the standard, but I think it is allowed, even preferable for this race). Long story short I´d leave them alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Wick doesn't have dew claws, so yeah, you've met one! What?! How the hell did I miss that?? I must have have been distracted by the dozen puppies she dropped on me as soon as I brought her home ;-) RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 There were only 11; stop being so dramatic!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefoot Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 RDM, its a very common for breeders to have front dew claws removed. The thought is they get ripped off. Probably some working dog breeds started the trend because dogs working in heavy brush probably did get dew claw injuries. I highly doubt it was a trend that started in the working dog world; cosmetic surgery doesn't tend to be all that popular with pragmatic folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefoot Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Thanks for the replies so far! Nice to meet everybody. RDM, yeah, it seems to be more common in conformation circles to remove the dew claws. I'm with you though. I don't like removing or altering parts for cosmetic reasons or for the sake of a standard. I had an adult boxer I fostered with a docked tail and removed dew claws and I could tell the tail especially bothered her. Lots of tension from the scar tissue. Don't know if it was because it was docked improperly or what. Thank god they left her ears alone. I've never had front dew claws removed from any of my dogs. I actually don't know of a single incidence where they have caused a problem and got ripped or torn, not in person and not in the 6 years I've been on various dog forums. The only issues I've heard of were from neglecting to keep it trimmed right. On the other hand, I have been shown well captured pictures of dogs doing agility where you can literally SEE the claw helping to provide traction on a tight turn. It was pretty cool. I've noticed my own German Shepherd using the claws to help hold a Nylabone or other chewy upright so she can chew on it better. I'm just unsure of these back ones because it doesn't seem to be quite as common for dogs to have dew claws on the hind feet. Might have to consult a few other dog forums just to get some more opinions and experiences. I wouldn't want him to get hurt, but at the same time I don't want to cause him unnecessary suffering by having them removed if they're not likely to cause issues. The suggestion of most doctors I've worked with, and I would agree, is to have them removed if there isn't any supporting bone structure; which sounds like your dog. If the dog can't articulate the nail, it serves no purpose and it increases the likelihood of the nail snagging on something and being torn off. If there is only soft tissue involved, the removal is very simple and painless. If performed during a neuter or spay, it's by far the least invasive part of the procedure. I wouldn't schedule a separate surgery for it, but it makes sense to add it to a spay/neuter. If there is supporting structure there, which is almost always the case on front dewies, I would leave them. It becomes a far more detailed procedure, and is certainly more painful. It's more like removing a portion of a finger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Double dewclaws are "required" by the AKC for Great Pyrenees. Some go so far as to say "If it doesn't have double dewclaws, it's not a Great Pyrenees." This link shows an x-ray of the attachment of rear dew claws on a Great Pyrenees. http://pyrmont.tripod.com/dewclaws.html While working at clinics I've seen a few dogs with torn dew claws, both front and back. I've also seen dogs with torn pads, noses, toes, and ears - but I've never heard a vet say those parts should be removed... And like Rushdoggie says, I regularly find dirt caked under my dog's dewclaws after a run. They do sometimes make contact with the ground, especially on tight turns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I highly doubt it was a trend that started in the working dog world; cosmetic surgery doesn't tend to be all that popular with pragmatic folks. Ah, but when it was started it wasn't cosmetic, they were removed for the same reasons tails were docked and ears done: do it on a young pup and it prevents injury in later life. The dew claw was considered non-essential because it wasn't on the lower foot so removing them as a pup was quick and prevented later issues. Some dogs do injure front dew claws, its just that now we realize its not a given and that they do have a purpose, so pre-emtive removal may not be the best thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I had Alex's floppy rear dew claws removed not too long after we got him. They were very loose, floppy and only attached by skin, not bone. Someone I know from another board said removing them was a simple snip of skin, not an amputation. He didn't even have stitches. I was very worried about him catching them on something, and I don't regret removing them, though I'm sure it is frowned upon. This is what they looked like when we brought him home: This is how he looked when we had them removed: (insert gratuitous cute puppy Alex pic!) I would never remove front dews. And I wouldn't have removed AA's rear ones if they had been attached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefoot Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Ah, but when it was started it wasn't cosmetic, they were removed for the same reasons tails were docked and ears done: do it on a young pup and it prevents injury in later life. The dew claw was considered non-essential because it wasn't on the lower foot so removing them as a pup was quick and prevented later issues. Some dogs do injure front dew claws, its just that now we realize its not a given and that they do have a purpose, so pre-emtive removal may not be the best thing. I get the feeling you're not talking about Border Collies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I get the feeling you're not talking about Border Collies. Oh yeah, sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant like hunting dogs. I know several hunting dog people (some setter/spaniel owners and my neighbor who hunts with his labs) that would never leave front dewclaws on because the culture in their group is the dog WILL get them caught in the field and they will rip. I have no idea about working BC people, but based on this thread I would assume not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffles Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Who takes off front few claws? That sounds awful! RDM When working at a grooming salon, I would say at least 1/3 of dogs did not have front dew claws, I would almost wanna say closer to half did not have them. I think most breeders remove them because it is one less nail for the owners to cut (because ya know, it is so much work!). We also would see a lot of irresponsible people come in with dogs who had dew claws grown into the skin. Especially with long haired dogs where people couldn't see (and wouldn't check) that it had curled into the skin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 We've only removed dew claws on one dog in 25 years. She was a BC/spaniel(??) mix that we rescued in a blizzard. She had dangling rear dew claws that we would have left alone, but she caught one on something and ripped it bloody. So we had them both removed. The process was terribly uncomfortable for her, though, and I'd hate to subject another dog to that without real cause. ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvw Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I have a BC x ACD mix. She had three! dew claws on each rear foot. They seemed floppy so we opted to have them removed. Turned out they were more connected than thought. But surgery went well. The problem after surgery was the licking despite several "cones". They eventually healed. Major pain in the butt. Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 My older dog has large floppy rear dew claws, he was 3 when we got him so they were not going any where BUT they do worry us. When we are at agility trials they are noticeable enough that people comment. He is a classic fearless border collie and we just hope that we do not hear scream one day with a badly ripped claw.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretBC Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Luke came with rear dew claws when I adopted him from the shelter as a puppy. I spoke with many people (including my vet) about it and everyone suggested I have them removed. As a horse person, I knew he'd be with me at the barn and running through the trails with me while I rode. I felt it was safer. Nobody ever suggested removing the fronts, so they stayed. I have to admit, I really dislike the appearance of rear dew claws. We occasionally get dogs at the shelter that have them and they just make me cringe. Especially the floppy ones. My Klee Kai had his removed by his breeder, as it's customary in the breed. I can't imagine I'd even be able to request fronts to be left intact from a future puppy, as they have it done when they are only days old and you typically don't pick a puppy until they are closer to 8 weeks. I would prefer they be left, though, as I do feel they assist the dog a great deal in making tight turns (which we see quite a bit of in agility). My parent's Scottish Terrier still has her front dew claws -- So not all AKC breeders automatically have them removed. With Scotties being an earth dog breed, maybe it is more common for them to leave them on. No rears, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 This article was just posted by one of my Facebook friend the other day. http://caninesports.com/DewClawExplanation.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVAF Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 It is a traumatic and debilitating for a dog to live with detached front dewclaws, unless you have an unheard of veterinary surgeon who has invented a means of re-attaching FIVE tendons in working order. Not cool to do this to a dog. Rear dewclaws are sometimes so barely connected that they do pose an injury risk for an active dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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