Dixie_Girl Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Hope to get some advice here as I feel it is desparately needed. As y'all know, Skip is only my second BC. So, even though I learned alot with Jackson, adding another BC is a whole nother book to read! Here's the deal. When Skip first came, he readily made fast friends with Jackson. But he never really connected with playing with toys. If I threw a toy for Jackson, Skip chased Jackson, NOT the toy. Then he started grabbing his tail, then as he got bigger and faster, his side, shoulder, or what ever he could get. Then, he figured he couldn't always catch Jackson, so he realized Jackson always came back to me, he started laying in wait. For a while, I just thought it was cute. Then, the light bulb finally comes on, and I'm thinking, what if Skip thinks ALL things that move should be attacked, i.e., sheep. So, I started teaching Skip what, "get outta that!" means, which is what is used for Jackson when he gets too close to the sheep. Skip has learned what I mean when I say that, BUT I always have to say it. In other words, he hasn't learned just not to do it. Last night, I tried a different tactic, and leashed Skip and wouldn't let him chase. I made him stay in a lie down. Then after a few times, I let him go, and when he "gripped" Jackson, I got onto him and leashed again. After about three times, he was doing better, and I quit thinking I didn't want to go too intense on this new thing. Jackson is such an easy going dog, Skip really has turned into a brat. The only dogs that have inforced him being nice is Lucy the foster girl. So, what am I doing right, wrong, devistating, etc.? What else can I do? I have also started taking Skip into the front yard to do training in leash walking, lie down, stay, here, etc. The front yard is where I can work with him wihtout the other dogs distracting him. Any advice will be appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 We have found that some dogs seem hardwired to work other dogs. My Jody will work Gyp and sometimes Peg. If we tell her to leave it she'll go off and not bother these dogs. Like Skip, she must be told every time. These dogs have tried to make the point to Jody to knock-it-off, but it doesn't stop her the next time. This is when you learn to manage the situation. Skip working Jackson is not good for Jackson and it's not good for Skip. When Jody goes to set-up on Gyp or tries to "head" Gyp we move towards Jody pointing our finger at her. This pressure by us (and sometimes with vocal correction) is now enough to break her focus. Initially I chased her off Gyp (every time) like you would chase a dog off sheep if it's getting too aggressive or applying to much pressure. You'll need to find the correction that works best for you and Skip; and you?ll need to make the correction every time. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 I have some what the same scenario at my place with my 6 just about 7 month old pup. She will head my Boxer to the point of grabbing his lips- I tell her no, and he thinks HE is in trouble so lets her continue! He is starting to get annoyed, and I hope that results in a lesson for her.... She has gotten to the point when we get home, she sits in front of his crate, waiting to get him when he comes out- but if I let him out last, she is already outside. She does a mean eye- walk up on one of my other dogs that she plays with, but no biting the face. See if you can get a handle on it now, by redirecting him. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Thanks to Linda for raising this question, and for Mark and Julie for addressing it. I don't have this problem in particular - several of my dogs do "work" each other but it's a different situation. Celt does outruns and tries to cover, with no physical intervention. Bute eyes and covers and again with no physical contact at all. But what I'm trying to deal with is Celt wanting to work my mare (he largely ignores the other horses/pony but I think maybe a little jealousy is part of it). I see from here (and other advice) that I must be more forceful (an appropriate correction like chasing him off rather than just telling him to "leave it" and then allowing him to continue) and very consistent to get results, and I appreciate your comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted October 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Thanks Mark and Julie! Mark, I have a follow up question, if you don't mind? When Jody is "working" the other dogs, is this when they are also working sheep? Or only in play? Will this carry over to when Skip is working sheep? I have seen 2-3 dogs working a large herd of sheep, and while I don't *intend* to ever have a large flock, will I only be able to have one or the other dog with me? Or will work circumvent the idea with Skip to work Jackson? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 I don't think you should extrapolate that Skip will do what he does to Jackson to sheep. Skip is an imp, and testing the waters so to speak with Jackson. Skip just needs boundaries I sort of introduced my pup to sheep this weekend, and she was amazed at the number (something like 25), and her heading etc. need was over run by how to keep them all together Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 When there are stock present, not one of my dogs/pup are interested in working anything but the stock. They will work WITH each other, but not work each other. I would think that, if a dog wanted to work another dog rather than the stock, it wouldn't be much of a stockdog. I think that, other than pushing his boundaries, Skip is utilizing his instincts with Jackson, just like pups/dogs may do with cats or anything else that triggers the instinct. When he's presented with stock, I expect he will be interested in them instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted October 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Sue, that does make sense. I remember when Jackson was about the same age and my son had his damnation here and Jackson herded her all the time! He never *gripped* her though. But, since getting Jackson on sheep, he does not even consider herding/working other critters. So, I will continue, as Mark suggested to keep Skip off Jackson AMAP, and see what happens when I get Skip on sheep. Jeeze, it sure is different having more than one BC! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted October 20, 2006 Report Share Posted October 20, 2006 One of our dogs, Tansy, constantly "works" the other dogs when they are playing. She doesn't grip the other dogs, but she is quite sensitive to any playing going on. She's a bit socially disabled, so few dogs will play with her. So, we work to shift her attention away from the dogs (because she circles and barks like a maniac). If we're at home, this often means a frozen Kong inside while play-time is going on with the other dogs. She's also very sensitive to pressure from us. She couldn't care less about other dogs when she has stock to work. Does Skip have a lot of eye? Hamish will lay in wait for other dogs to play and will also do a stealth almost-grip (not actually gripping them, but running alongside with snout at their shoulder). Hamish is very easy to call off, but we have to do it every time like Mark said with Jody. We can usually break his focus with a "lie down". If he doesn't give, we walk toward him, putting pressure on him. We also work hard to catch him before he locks on because we don't want him to give in to his eye or develop it further. We try hard not to let any of the dogs lie in wait on one side of a door--though all four BCs try it--particularly on the outside of a crate. That always leads the one waiting to try and grip the one coming out the door--and that one usually takes offensive (understandably). Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Linda, Jody works the other dogs during "turn-outs"; this has nothing to do with livestock. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mona Howard Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Sue, Make a big, ugly scene everytime you see Celt even looking at your mare. I had a dog that just loved to work my horses and I always had to watch and make sure one day he didn't tee off one of the horses and get stomped into the ground. It was a real pain. When my younger dog started eyeballing my gelding I cracked down on him hard, holding him to the ground and yelling. Thankfully he doesn't bother the horses anymore. It's bad enough that they are annoying the horses but think how bad you'd feel if you were on the trial field and your dog messed with the set out horse and the rider got bucked off! Also, if your mare was to kick him it might make him refuse to lift his sheep if they are near the set out horse...I'm glad I nipped it in the bud with this dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted October 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Mark, okay, just so I have this clear! What Skip does with Jackson is not indictive of what will happen when he is on stock? Correct? That is what I found with Jackson anyway. An added note, Skip has FINALLY figured out that I don't want him biting at Jackson, but trying to grab the toy is okay. NOW the foster girl, Missy, now that she is faster, has started on him! What, does he taste good? Jeeze! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Linda, yes and no. Jody likes to head stock while working and she's "heading" while working dogs. On the other hand, she's not trying to bring me the dogs. It's not the same thing (working stock vs. working dogs), but I believe a fault in working stock can show up (or even be the cause) of working dogs. For example, dogs with a lot of eye on stock are probably prone to show this eye if they work other dogs. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Mona - Thank you for the advice about Celt and my mare. Right now, the horses aren't where he interacts with them much at all but I've gotten lots of feedback that I need to be hard about this and consistent, so I shall. I appreciate your concern and taking the time to advise me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted October 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Mark, Skip shows a lot of eye when he is waiting for Jackson to run. I am worried only in that when he is in this mode, it takes a lot for me to get his attention. So, I will take this as not a good thing? I want to be able to play with all the dogs together, but not at the expense of Skip developing bad habits when he is put on stock. I had been leashing Skip and letting Jackson get the frizbee, then putting Jackson in a down/stay, and letting Skip chase the frizbee. Will this be good to do for a while? At least until maybe Skip figures out it is the toy, not the dog that is to be chased down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Activities that allow a dog's "eye" to be developed, IMHO, are not good for dogs with a bit too much eye. Based upon this opinion I would not allow Skip to lay and watch another dog run; because in Skip's mind he is "working" the running dog while he's laying there. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted October 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Okay, is there any way of playing with all the dogs, and teach Skip to stop "working" them? Or is he just too intense? Also, at Jackson's next lesson, I was planning to take Skip for his first intro to stock, he is 5mos. now. Will this show anything? What will I look for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Teach Skip a "get out of it" or "leave it" command and use it when you see him working the other dogs (see above for teaching methods). Figure out if he works one dog in particular and make sure this combination is not present for these group sessions if Skip cannot participate without working the dog(s). A 5 month old is not likely to "know" what to do (perhaps he will feel he should do something) making it difficult for you to look for something in his behavior. Once he "turns on" and is starting to balance then you may start to see eye show. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted October 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Mark, I appreciate your time in this! Jackson is the only one he focuses on. And I have taught, and he knows, "get out of that!". He responds really well to it now. Yeah, 5mos. is just a look see age. I won't try him again till he is 10 to 12 mos. and that will be more formal training. So, it is still a bit off before we have any idea what he will actually do with stock. I think maybe I need to continue the take turns play with him for a while longer. Thanks again for your input and time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mona Howard Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 You're so welcome Sue! I wish I had not let that habit start in my old dog but he has passed on now. (Thankfully not from a horse kick!! I will make sure I don't let it get started with any other dogs. My current dog has his share of other bad habits. It's always something........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 mark: My 7 month old kelpie pup is all about eye- especially on the other dogs. When one particular dog is outside, her buddy (most of the time), she will lock on a stare, and stalk, and then run up and they play- or the other one ignores her. She pretty much works the dogs the whole time they are outside- which is marked by her getting around, and moving to the correct position to keep them in the proper location, etc. She uses her eyes quite a bit, and just recently started looking at cars that go by when we are in the car, and following them as they go by, as well as looking up for the birds.... I honestly haven't seen so much eye orientation before. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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