Giving an effective correction

[Pippin's person]

I've been working with my dogs for a very short time (about a year) and am thus a complete novice (and had zero prior exposure to livestock). I'm training with an Open handler and we alternate working my dogs, so that they have as much exposure to someone who knows what she is doing as to someone who is learning.

 

My question is about corrections. My year old dog (and the one who shows the most talent at the moment) occassionally hot rods around--he usually calms down with a verbal correction. Last night while I was working him, he singled out a lamb, split it off and harrassed it--he didn't grip it, but he was clattering his teeth as he ran by. By the time I could catch him to correct him, of course, it was long over (at least long over in his mind).

 

I chewed him out verbally and took him away from the sheep for a few minutes, but I'm sure it wasn't effective.

 

Of course, the optimal case is not to let this happen, but given that they are so much faster (and smarter , what is an appropriate and useful way to handle that kind of behavior if you weren't able to prevent it or catch it in the moment it happened?

 

Thanks

Robin

[cgt]

This is the million dollar question!

 

The good trainers seem to almost always "prevent it or catch it in the moment it happened", don't you think?

 

One thought from someone who is still learning: If you can identify the situations that cause the trouble, don't avoid them. Set them up repeatedly and be prepared to catch the little devil in the act. Somehow it's better to let the dog make the mistake and then teach it not to do that (perfect timing and response is needed here, I'm afraid) than it is to simply prevent/avoid the bad behavior. Do you know what I mean?

 

Sorry if that's obvious. And I know it's easier said than done.

 

charlie

[Pippin's person]

Yes, I guess that's what makes them good handlers...

 

My trainer told me that it was probably time to escalate the correction a little--to grab his scruff--but that would still have to be timed right, of course. And ditto with tossing the stick in his path.

 

Setting him up would be a very good strategy, though. HIs hot rodding seems most common on the come bye after he's been working for 15 minutes or so. We could probably try setting him up on a fence line or something like that to make it easier for me to actually catch him.

 

He's got quite a bit of eye and that's part of the problem as well. He self-corrects on the away, but there's something about the come bye that brings out the scamp. The trainer noted last night that with strong-eyed dogs with light eyes like he is, you can almost always see that he's heading for bad behavior because he gets buggy-eyed, so I've probably got to work harder at watching him more closely so I can anticipate it and be ready to catch him.

 

My problem is that I'm working so hard to watch the sheep and making sure that I don't fall down that my little brain goes on over drive, too.

 

robin

[Pipedream Farm]

Robin,

 

If you watch him closely; often you'll see signs that the "hot rodding" is developing. I understand it's hard to watch everything (your footing, the sheep, and your dog) at the same time. When you see the signs, that is when you talk to him; either a verbal correction or a calming voice (which ever works). My Jody will "blow her top" from time-to-time and dive in on the sheep. When I'm really paying attention (especially in situations when she might dive in) I'll see her demeanor change. When I see this I can "talk her out of it"; with a reminder that I'm watching her. I usually give her a calm but stern "Joooooddddy". Its often enough to break the mental stress and focus that is leading up to her reaction.

 

Mark

[Wendy V]

I don't correct a 1 yo that covers a single that has split off. I WANT the dog to cover it. I want the dog to learn that escaping sheep need to be caught.

 

When a single splits off, many people panic at this moment, running and yelling at the dog, creating a ruckus, which only creates more stress/tension/fear in the dog. The handler should try to calm the dog, by using it's name in a calm, bored voice. Once the dog has covered the sheep, flank it to recover the rest of the flock, allow it to come to balance, and then stop it. Walk to the dog calmly, and past it, calling it off of the sheep. Then take a moment to consider what happened and analyze what went wrong. The dog is reacting to stress, so what caused the stress? What are you setting up incorrectly? Is the dog over it's head? Do you need to shorten the distance, work different sheep, get out of the corners, or maybe the dog is too immature to handle the pressure of training, etc, etc? Escalating a correction at this young of age may turn a dog off or set up a situation where the dog rebels against the trainer, both which are symtoms of a lack of trust between the dog and handler. Maybe the correction isn't the problem, but the set-up.

 

This all being said, I'm sure that I ere on the side of not giving enough corrections. But I am very careful when working a young dog and want to evaluate the circumstances before I react. If a correction is needed, then the problem will present itself again soon and I can react accordingly.

 

Good luck to you.

[hillfarm]

This is my first time posting on the boards so I will introduce myself before replying,

 

I have 6 borders, ranging in age from 9 years to 4 months. I have been working my two 4 year olds for two years now and just started my two pups this month. I worked with an open handler for over a year and gained enough confidence to start my own pups on my own sheep.

 

I live here in eastern oregon so am not near my old trainer any more, so now I kind of have to

figure things out for myself!

 

On the subject of driving off one lamb do you think your dog did it intentionally? Or did the sheep just take off on its own? With my older dogs if they drive one off on purpose I correct them immediately by trying to get in the way and get them focused back on the herd, I find this usually only happens when the dogs are getting tired and start to zone out on me, Once the sheep is back with the herd I will force a few get arounds, way out arounds then finish the run on a good point and "that'll do them"

 

With the pups, I don't yet correct them as I like to watch to see if they can bring it quickly back to the herd once it has gotten away. When they get it back they are given a "good job" or "good dog" and we continue on

 

I too also know exactly when my dogs are getting ready to do wrong, their eyes get glassy and they always drop the shoulder on the side they are going to dive in on so I try to get my stick in front of them or behind them to drive them on.

 

The pups of course are much faster than me so I start them in a small bullpen with a flag on the end of a short lunge whip so I can get it in front of them or snap it to make a noise to get their attention, they can really get focused on those sheep!

 

On the subject of facing off with sheep I have to agree with taking the dog up to the sheep with you and encouraging it with a "get in there " or "move that sheep" I put a bit of excitement into the command so the dog knows its okay to put a little force into his moves. If I have a particularly stubborn ewe I will encourage it to move on with a tap on the nose with the stick, then once it gets turned around the dog feels like he did it and gains confidence in his abilities.

 

Now on the whole falling down thing, whew, how many times have I done that? Don't want to count! My older dogs are now into LONG outruns, my dog Zip will bring them consistently to you in a lovely controlled manner so beautiful it can bring tears to your eyes, then there is cowboy, the dog who believes full speed is the only speed, I have learned to stand my ground and just turn sideways and hope for the best but it is truly a scary sight to see them running full bore right at me and of course Cowboy who at the moment has apparently lost his hearing is grinning from ear to ear running on their heels. I have since learned to make sure cowboy is well worked in the arena before taking him out on the pasture runs.

 

Well hope I have been a little help. And hope to hit the nationals next week to watch since they are so close to me, maybe I will meet some of you there.

[Pippin's person]

Thanks everyone--this is helpful for me.

 

Hamish definitely split the lamb off intentionally. A few weeks prior, one of the sheep split off on its own and he brought it back just fine (though then he kept going back--even two weeks later to where it had been--seeming to check for other strays).

 

I think part of the problem was that he was confused by me being out there and not really giving him effective instructions. Because it still feels so new to me, my instincts on when they are doing it right and when they need correction are not always good, either--so, my praise is often as badly timed as the corrections--it's a wonder they can figure out what the heck I want at all. But, I"m learning and, I hope, getting better.

 

Hamish is also young and really only gets to work once a week, so it's just going to take a little longer to get him settled I think.

 

My trainer also says that he tires out earlier because he's red--have others of you heard or experienced this with red BCs?

 

Have fun if you get out to the nationals--I wish I were that close!

 

Robin

[juliepoudrier]

Robin,

I own several red border collies and have never noticed that they tire more easily than any other color. In fact, one of my red dogs runs, like, literally all day in the back yard. Talk about stamina. The other two are open trial dogs and manage to make it around courses and work at home without tiring easily. That's my way of saying that I think your trainer is full of s***, and if your dog is really tiring easily I would look for other causes (i.e., the mental stress of training or just not being very fit or some combination of the two).

 

J.

[Pippin's person]

Thanks Julie--it didn't make a lot of sense to me, either, but I never know when it's just something I don't know about.

 

I suspect it's the mental stress for him, but it might also be that he's not quite fit enough--hard to say--he's definitely not fat and is well-muscled, but he doesn't run sheep every day, so he may just need to build more stamina.

 

I don't even know if he really tires all that easily--I think we all got hypervigilant with him because we let him get too hot during one lesson this summer and he got wobbly--this was only a few days after a trial where a dog died from overheating.

 

robin

[cgt]

I'll second Julie's assertion. My first dog was a red dog. She never got tired. But she did tend to run a little hot.

 

(She also had a habit of chewing sheep after lifting them. I never could beat that, and I would get ulcers just walking to the post with her. She is now excelling as a pet.)

 

charlie

[hillfarm]

Does hamish play with the other dogs during the day? Before he goes out to work?

 

When I first started my two older pups they would tire easily and they are b&w's not reds. I couldn't figure out how in the world young dogs could tire so easily, then I watched them one day at home where they ran together with my two much older dogs. This is when I noticed that they RAN all day, herding the other two, then I took them to the trainers ranch and expected them to run sheep 3 or 4 times in a two hour period. No wonder they wanted to quit early on me. I started kenneling them on work days and they were like new dogs, never quit on me after that.

[Bill Fosher]

People often talk about getting the dog to bring the single back to the group. It's my opinion that this should be done the other way around: bring the many to the few.

 

So when the pup splits off a single, rather than correcting him and making a big deal of it, call him off and have him drive the rest of the sheep back to the single.

 

What this accomplishes in the dog's mind is that there is less excitement involved in splitting the sheep, and the dog learns how to handle it when it does happen for some reason.

 

As others have pointed out, the best way to handle this is to keep it from happening. Stop the dog and calm it down before he splits one off.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

If it's a wild dog in the round pen type of split, just the act of getting the dog under control will allow the one to go back to the group - or allow them to drift together.

 

If it is a situation where the dog is not pacing, not reading the sheep well, and one in the group decides not to play anymore (or sometimes you WILL get a non-player) - as Bill said it's best to catch this sort of thing happening before the single commits to being a single. Then usually the one will return on its own, again. If that doesn't work you can "cheat" towards the opposite side of the larger group to take more pressure off the single - and make sure your dog remains backed off. This is assuming the sheep is not standing in the next county.

[Sue R]

I seem to always be told to bring "the many to the few", but I always manage to forget that in the heat of the moment and send Celt for the single. So far, it's worked amazingly well but those that know better than I tell me it's not the best way to do it. He's so keen to cover that it doesn't happen often with sheep. With the cattle, I think sending him for the single works nicely but they do work somewhat differently from sheep (not so flighty).

 

I like the sound of Bill's explanation. It makes a great deal of sense. Why can't I remember that sort of thing when the occasion occurs? Thanks for explaining.

[Pippin's person]

I also like the idea of the bring the many to the few and will definitely try to keep that in mind for the future (though of course, my mind is still small...). Hamish actually did pretty well last night--no hot rodding or splitting on purpose--the sheep did split up from one another at one point, but he got them back together.

 

He does play quite a bit during the day--especially because I'm working at home right now, so the dogs are more excited and sleeping less--I might try crating him for a few hours before lessons. We did learn that feeding them something a few hours before made a HUGE difference.

 

Right now, we have a different training challenge to work with--a visiting toddler. Hamish is a wiggly butt around kids generally, but my neice, who's not had much exposure to any animals, screams when they come near. She does fine if she's approaching them, but not the reverse, so Hamish has had to be doing lots of thinking about how to stay away from her (and FWIW we are generally keeping them all separate--but we let her meet Hamish out on a walk when he was on leash--he took treats from her, but then pretty much decided to make a wide berth as much as possible).

 

Thanks for all the advice--it really is very helpful

[cgt]

Bill "Dr. Sheep Management" Fosher is right, of course.

 

But, in our imperfect world sometimes a sheep will split off or lag behind on its own. I like a dog which stays calm, backs off, and carefully tucks the single back in. I have one dog who is so stupid that he works a single the same way he works a group. He doesn't realize how tough things can get and that he is supposed to get excited. Occasionally I'll find a loner off in the distance in my pasture. I can send that dog to gather the single and his walnut sized brain is such that he just fetches it in as if it were a group of 30. I really like that dog.

 

It seems to me that in a trial setting there may be times you may prefer to bring the one to the many so as to not have to go backwards, cross the course, etc. I have also been shown by some sharp handlers how you can sometimes get a single to join up by *increasing* (a little) the distance between the group and the single and then backing the dog off so as to make the single hot to join back up. Of course, in a perfect world, a good dog never lets one get by itself.

 

charlie

[blackacre]

Absolutely.

And sometimes you will get a wily, dog savvy group that uses 'divide and conquer' to beat a dog that never quite covers either the single or the group. In that situation, I've been told to bring the dog around hard on the single and stuff her back in. Give her a fright, so that she is not as keen to lag the next time.

A