Phoenix intimidated by sheep????

[Joe Anne]

Okay, I need someone to tell me their dog has done this and is doing well now.

We have been practicing our herding training and loving it! For the most part Phoenix is doing well and I am the one who needs the most training! Coming from doing obedience training, it is difficult for me to step back and stop telling him everything in obedience style. I can't seem to get it through my head... keep the dog at 12 o'clock to me, and keep the sheep between me and the dog... as best I can... seems simple enough but I keep messing up.. grrrrrr! bad mommy, baaaaad mommy

He is very focused on the sheep from outside the fence, and will go to them right off, when I start walking in their direction, and then BAM... does pretty well once he gets started. He even got them out of a corner, and one time headed them off to keep them out of a corner. That is good, however, if a sheep turns and looks right at him, face on, he is outta hear! He will not challenge a sheep at all face to face.

He was in a very small field today, first time out of the corral, so this part is new for him.

I am not disappointed, and I am not discouraged at all, in fact I am happy he is doing this well and I love it all.

It is not all the sheep together, he seems to have a problem just when one or more of them face him off! Arrrrrgh!

Anyway... I guess I just wanted to update ya'll on how my boy is doing with his herding career.

We will be going to Jack Knox's clinic again, in November, and I can't wait.

Also, his whole demeanor/attitude of being aggressive and snarky with other dogs and people is gone, gone, gone! He is such a good boy most all of the time now. I took him to a dog walk last weekend and he was nose to nose with big dogs, little dogs, sniffy and barky dogs, and not 1 single time did I have to correct his behavior, and he even let strangers pat him. I am soooooo happy and pleased about his incredible turn around..ever since that 1st herding clinic we went to.

[Sue R]

Firstly, what does your trainer think about this issue? He/she should be your first source of information, not the boards.

 

Phoenix is still pretty young and has not had a lot of exposure to stock yet. Think of him developing his instincts and gaining experience, as well as confidence.

 

Just how often has he been on stock in a training/working situation? Are you able to train frequently? You've been to a Jack Knox clinic it appears from your post but what other clinics/training have you been able to do?

 

I think a lack of confidence can be a common issue in some dogs and perhaps particularly in dogs that have come from an obedience/agility background, where they have learned to depend on you and your directions more than their instincts. He's also recently been taught to not be snarky and he may be a bit reluctant to be assertive with recalcitrent sheep at this point in his training. He's still figuring things out, perhaps.

 

Think of Phoenix as being young and as being "young" in training. Don't worry, trust your instructor(s), and allow him to develop. Your trainer should be giving you the advice and encouragement it takes to deal with the problem.

 

Others here may have much better advice for you than I. I wish you two the best!

[Eileen Stein]

I agree with Sue, but I would not let him lose to the sheep. Any time this happens I would provide backup to the dog in a low-key manner by walking up on the sheep with him til they give way and turn. This is easier once you've begun driving with him, since you'd usually be on the same side of the sheep with him when it happened, but assuming you're not at that stage yet you could try either lying him down (if he will), walking to him and walking up on the sheep yourself, or calling him to you and both of you walking up on the sheep. You could put him on a leash to walk up with him if that's necessary to keep him with you. I would not want him to get in a groove of running away when sheep look at him, if only because if that happens repeatedly the sheep will be emboldened to defy him more often. But also for the sake of building his confidence I would want him to have repeated experiences of seeing sheep that faced him turn away and move off when he walks up on them, which they will do if you're with him. If for some reason you can't do this, I would try to work only sheep that will freely move away from him for now.

 

If you have an instructor you can consult about this, however, you're better off doing that than taking advice from me.

[Joe Anne]

My instructor is terrific & is most definately my first source of info and has said all of the above that ya'll have said here.

Sorry if it sounded like I was asking for actual training advice, what I was really wondering is, if anyone else's dog had started out like this and is doing well now????

I am just so excited to actually be able to practice and work with sheep in between clincs that I guess my thoughts come out faster than my brain processes them... if that makes any since???

We have used a long line and walked him up to the sheep, and yes he does seem to do a bit better with me by his side, but then again there is that darn obedience training & where Phoenix's confidence level is, currently.

Like I mentioned, I think > I

[Sue R]

Joe Anne - You did ask just what you intended and I guess I read more into it than you meant.

 

My Celt surely has some confidence issues himself and I am sure a large part of it is due to his inept handler, me! I agree whole-heartedly with Eileen that you can encourage your dog and lend him support - as many folks would say to me with exasperation, "Help your dog!"

 

Celt gets "flustered" when stock stands up to him, particularly sheep as they don't tend to "do that". When the cattle resist him, a little encouragement is often all he needs to get in there and show a little teeth and gumption, and they retreat. Since he's used to light or dog-broke sheep, he's taken aback when a sheep is resistant to his pressure. Since this has only happened (once) on someone else's sheep, I was not comfortable to urge him on in the same way I would if the sheep had been my own, and risk a grip. Instead, my instructor immediately switched to a different group of sheep that would allow him to be confident.

 

Celt's been "beaten" a couple of times in a trial situation by sheep that sized us up and broke and ran when my handling was not up to the challenge. We went off course and DQ'd and I had to call him off on the one run, and the sheep on the other run jumped a low fence and left the field for another DQ.

 

I don't think either of these incidents produced "lasting damage" to anyone but me, as they left me very little confidence in myself rather than my dog. Celt has always wanted to be in control of his stock and had a "fear" of losing them but he seemed to bounce back after these two events much better than I did!

 

To allow the sheep to "win" over the dog will just increase the problem, and it surely won't help it, particularly with a young (and young-in-training) dog or repeated incidents of "losing" to the sheep. A dog with confidence issues can improve with proper assistance, experience, and training.

 

I'm glad you are happy with your trainer. That is essential. Best wishes from another novice!

[Joe Anne]

Thanks Sue... actually I think the sheep will be different ones next time and easier for a newbie like Phoenix to work with.

I really do feel like I too am a big part of the problem. I honestly didn't realize that the obedience training could possibly affect herding training this way, I flat out didn't know...dern it. Hmmm, but ya know this is all a learning experience for me and Phoenix. He is not my 1st BC, but he is the 1st I have done herding training with, and certainly not the last. I have been bitten hard, by the herding bug! The old saying... when ya know better, ya do better, surely applies here.

Anyway, thanks again........

have a beautiful BC day

[Jo&Tex]

From one set of newbies to another - kris and I feel your pain. We're muddling through our lessons too. I'd probably actually be learning if I was listening to the trainer instead of wondering to myself "was that an Away? should I say Come bye now?" why won't the dog stop? hey the sheep are leaving..."

 

Trust me, you are not alone.

[Sue R]

You know, I'm doing a bit better (after two years of once-a-month lessons and a few clinics) with Celt but that's because I don't have to move around so much in the large field with him working a bigger packet of sheep. Yes, I do have to move, but it's on a bigger scale.

 

Now, with Bute (six months old and just getting exposed to sheep for a few minutes once a month) who is a bit of an unguided missle - I just can't think and move and be in the right place and do the right thing, etc., etc.! To quote/paraphrase Susan, my trainer, "You're pushing him right into the middle of the sheep." and "Did you mean to do that?" and "Why did you do that?" and "You are not having an effect on him." and "Are you alright? Get up! He's bringing the sheep back to you." and (very occasionally) "Good."

 

I'm older - I don't think fast and I don't move fast, and I'm still wondering what's about to happen and what I should do and the situation's over and past before I begin to process it in my mind (much less response with my voice and/or body). I've never started a younger pup (just Celt, who started as a fairly calm turning-one-year-old youngster). After spending two years feeling that I was learning things and becoming a little more capable of doing some things right and with better timing, I now feel (with Bute) like an absolute klutz and ignoramus again. But it's gloriously fun to see him endeavoring to follow his instincts and hope that I can help him develop into a useful farm dog and maybe even a dog I can trial a little with...

 

Best wishes and good luck to all and especially the novices/newbies because we sure need it!

[KrisK]

As Jo said, our newbie heads are full to bursting trying to remember everything..or for that matter ANYTHING I've vowed to write CB and A on my hands as a reminder

Oh well, it's great fun and it has pushed me into moving the 5 year plan for sheep...up a bit..like into the 1-2 year plan

It's been great for the dogs. It's so nice to see how Jazz, my middled aged boy at 7...has taken to learning this job that is so ingrained in his head and until now never had the opportunity to show his true colours

[Joe Anne]

Is it normal for "me" to feel a bit intimidated by 3 or 4 HUGE, sheep running in my direction at full speed, with an 'unexperienced' BC on their heels???? :eek: LOL!

I fully admit it... had this been even 5 yrs ago, no prob. I have always faced a challenge head on (no pun intended). At 59 yrs. old and retired from the medical field and seeing the results of broken bones in someone of "maturing" years... well...hmmm, I wonder if I am putting out some sort of energy that Phoenix is picking up on. I haven't gotten knocked down, YET, but dern close to it, and the ol adrenaline kicks in whether I want it to or not. Those sheep darn right don't care who is in their path when that dog is on their butt! I too don't move as fast as I used to...I want too, but even though the brain says, go-go-go, the body seems to say either no-no-no or slow-slow-slow!

I also spend too much time wondering what is gonna happen next and before you know "next" has already happened.

Well it is nice to know that I am in good company as far as usin newbies go.

I feel a bit better, hearing ya'lls stories.

Thanks

Heres to the newbies!!!!

[Joe Anne]

ps... I think that shoulda be "in-expereinced" dog, darn, I can't even spell now!

[Maralynn]

Is it normal for "me" to feel a bit intimidated by 3 or 4 HUGE, sheep running in my direction at full speed, with an 'unexperienced' BC on their heels????

Nooo, not normal at all . It is rather intimidating, isn't it? I think I surprised a trainer I went to because I stood my ground when the sheep came running at me durning the first lesson. Of course I was using his dog-broke sheep, and my dog and I were used to trying to work my sheep who were definately not dog-broke. It was one of the first times I had actually felt "in charge" of the situation.

 

BTW, it doesn't take a big sheep, or even one running at full speed to knock you down. I had a 4 m/o lamb get startled and jump at me, knocking me right on the ground :eek:

[Sue R]

Should you feel concerned with sheep galloping straight at you? Yes!!! I have had full-grown cattle intentionally or otherwise hurt me but the most serious (and painful) injury I've received was from a sheep. Just one sheep, but she was determined to go where she felt a need to go and I was right in her way...

 

I think an issue with sheep is that they tend to hit you right around the area of the knees and that's scary and has potential for injury. They don't call them "knee-knockers" for no good reason!

 

In my limited experience, if a sheep is in flight mode and you are in the way, it will just plow through you. Cattle generally hit you higher up in the body and push you aside, and seem to make an effort to avoid you (as well as not getting panicky and running "blindly" into you, as sheep occasionally seem to do.

 

That said, keep on your feet, be prepared to move, bend your knees slightly with your feet about shoulder distance apart, and remember that injuries are the exception, not the rule.

 

After that one sheep hurt me, I would panic any time a sheep approached me, even at a slow pace, and the tenseness and fear I felt resulted in more pain as my muscles tensed and cramped. The older we get, the more injuries we've experienced and the more mortal we feel...

 

Best wishes!

[KrisK]

Is it normal for "me" to feel a bit intimidated by 3 or 4 HUGE, sheep running in my direction at full speed, with an 'unexperienced' BC on their heels????

Oh yes...I DO know that feeling My trainer told me it's probably best to stand still...since the sheep will usually go around you. Easier said than done! However, I can say, he's been right so far but I keep waiting to be knocked on my keister! something my 50ish bones are not looking forward to! Thanks Sue, for how to brace myself for the inevitable

[Maralynn]

FWIW, my no answer was being totally facetious.

[Joe Anne]

Maralynn.... that is exactly how I took it actually, you made me laugh... actually everyone's answer has brought a smile to my face.. I guess I was being a bit sarcastic even saying, is it normal to feel intimidated, because normal or not I AM!!! It really is intimidating, fer shur! Hopefully that will change as I and Phoenix get more exposure and experience.

Kris... I remember getting the same advice from a national park ranger when backpacking in Alaska, about if a grizzly bear charges you! "Just stand still, it's probably a bluff".... I said, "probably"! :eek:

Although.... I am not really comparing sheep to a grizzly bear, at least the sheep won't make a meal outta ya, after knocking ya down! LOL!

Knee knockers, hmmm another new herding term

I really didn't think about that, but, oh yea , knees being rammed by charging sheep, 59 yr. old grandma, inexperienced Border Collie going full speed ..........WOW! coooool, this is FUN, stuff, and I really am loving it.. What the hey, there are a lot more NOT FUN ways of getting broken bones! HA!

One good thing is I am able to do a whole lot more at my ripe ol (maturing) age, then my Grandmother was at the same age, there is somethig to be said bout that, right???

[juliepoudrier]

Joe Anne,

Just remember that your dog can read your tension and so you should try to stay as calm as possible, even when being charged by sheep. Remember you can always step to the side (make a 90-degree turn), which will force your dog to flank around to get back to balance, all of which gives you time to breathe and think.

 

Not too long ago I was worming/medicating a couple of sheep and so had brought the whole flock of to this one corner of the field where there's a run-in shed, so it's an easy place to trap the sheep with dogs and then do what I need to do. I decided to let my youngster help out with the gathering and holding. It went well until said youngster got bored with the waiting and decided to charge in with the whole flock and me packed in the corner/shed as I was in the middle of medicating a particular (prize) ewe. There's nothing like taking a ride on a mosh pit of sheep being crammed even tighter (with certain individuals literally exploding out into the open) into a space by an enthusiastic youngster!

 

Sue is right that sheep in panic mode will pretty much run pell mell into anything, but if you are using well dog broke sheep, they ought to have a little more sense than that (that's some consolation, isn't it?).

 

I'd like to suggest that the next time you go for a lesson, you go into the field without a dog and practice moving the sheep around. Get yourself in among them and just get used to the way they react to your pressure. I think once you become more comfortable with sheep in general, then you will find them less intimidating when they are heading toward you at full speed. Also remember that usually a swinging stick or waving arms *will* turn or stop running sheep.

 

Sheep are actually generally pretty nice creatures. They can remember faces and voices, and remember being treated well or poorly. Gaining the sheep's confidence sans your dog can go a long way toward improving your training sessions.

 

Just my opinion.

 

J.

[bcnewe2]

My 2 cents

I was once told by someone long ago (translates to I don't remember who told me) that if sheep are coming at you at full tilt to keep your hands by your sides and wiggle them. not flail your arms but wiggle your hands while at your sides. Believe it or not, it works for me. I have flighty sheep (coyotes keep them pretty nervous) and I have not been run into for quite some time.

Now in Julie's case, there's not a whole lot to do except pull the syringe out and try again after you get things back to a semblence of clam.

 

I to, have been led down the path of using a young dog to help medicate. She was there, the good dog wasn't so what the heck.

Well I figure you got about 1 min. or less with a new dog (or lets say green with a bit of a handle on her) before she can't stand the stopped motion and she pops up to see what you're doing. Happens more than I'd like to think about. In that case things are already tight, I don't go sailing, just feels like your surfing along on a big sheep wave! Ending up who know where.

 

Aren't sheep wonderful?!!

I really do love mine and also know which ones are likely to run me down. Usually the 2 lone woolies I have who just don't like being here, me, or their hair sheep buddies.

 

My newest deliema is taking a green dog out to sheep and not getting the LGD's put away. They don't mind a seasoned dog working their ladies but they're not really fond or green dogs with questionable intent. They don't attack, but they tackle or stand in-between the sheep and the dog.

 

My 4 motnh old pup broke into the sheep paddock and as she was running hell bent for sheep Lonesome, my fav. LGD stepped into her path and she tumbled backwards when she ran into him. Didn't deter her, she just tried to go around him. She beat him but I caught her. Dragged her kicking and screaming out of the pen. Little hellion

 

Cheers and good luck with the training.

Kristen

[Sue R]

Now in Julie's case, there's not a whole lot to do except pull the syringe out and try again after you get things back to a semblence of calm.

Pull the syringe of out whom? Your comment leaves me with a number of interesting (and somewhat amusing) alternatives. I've been there, done that, only it's been cattle...

 

The idea of making some form of movement that works and sound that might cause the sheep to react in another direction sounds good to me. Of course, that's only if I can think and move and make noise in a timely fashion and go in the right direction. Usually, by the time I figure out what's going on, it's over and done with, and I'm run over and down. Luckily, most impacts are minor but the rare ones that aren't can be very painful.

 

Maybe I need to leave Bute in the house. The sheep knocked me down (either that or I tripped over my own feet) last Saturday at our teeny-tiny lesson and he was preparing to bring them back to me when Susan told me I'd better get up quick or get run over.

[bcnewe2]

Pull the syringe of out whom? Your comment leaves me with a number of interesting (and somewhat amusing) alternatives. I've been there, done that, only it's been cattle...

Depends on which time you're wondering about! I figure I'll never get CDT or Blackleg! and I'm pretty sure I'm not allergic to PenG

 

 

I don't make noise...that's way to much for me to think aobut when they're coming in fast. Maybe a quick squeak if I don't think their stopping or seeing my wiggling hands or a huge "LIE DOWN YOU *#!* HEAD" if it's cause the dog is up thier rears.

Now I can't imagine being so calm in the face of charging cattle. I have new cattle neighbors (I should say I'm the new neighbor) who are asking about the dogs and thinking they would really like a trained dog....all I can think is, I got the dog, can they train the cattle? Mick could handle it but not sure about me as his partner!

 

I've recently met some new dog friends down here and they have some wonderful holestin (sp?) calves. We've had a blast working them but before I found those calves I was at a friends working her not so broke cattle and lets just say...the dog has enough power and confidence but the handler was weak, weak, weak! I'm working on my cattle confidence everyday! I walk to the neighbor's field and call them to me and tell them how pretty they look even tho they're covered in flies and are quite pushy with each other! It's working, at least for them! They come each time I call them How do I call a cow you ask....here cow, cow, cow....Mooooooo Moooooo

 

OMT....you know you're not a true shepherd if you don't fall down. So at least it's not all in vain. Your a true shepherd now!

 

Kristen

[Sue R]

I have new cattle neighbors (I should say I'm the new neighbor) who are asking about the dogs and thinking they would really like a trained dog....all I can think is, I got the dog, can they train the cattle? Mick could handle it but not sure about me as his partner!

You know, we've had cattle of one type or another for over 25 years but I surely can say I've never ENJOYED having cattle and doing cattle chores like I have since I got these dogs that work with me. We previously had Rocket (Border Collie x Aussie, looked like a large, lanky Border Collie and worked primarily like a Border Collie) and MacLeod (Aussie). Both were "home-trained" by us and we didn't know anything worthwhile about training but they both served us well, but these dogs have been much, much more useful.

 

Having Celt (who's bred to work) and getting some professional help (cattledog clinics with Gary Ericsson, lessons on sheep with Susan Rhoades, and sheepdog clinics with Jack Knox, and a few lessons with Scott Glen and Sam Furman) has made all the difference in the world. He's got his faults but he's a much better stockdog than I am a handler, and so many of his shortcomings are really just my training/handling shortcomings.

 

Cows do work differently from sheep generally. They are bigger, don't tend to group as tightly or well as sheep, react to pressure from the dog a bit differently, and can be very challenging. I think that, for some dogs like my Celt, there aren't as many confidence issues in working sheep as cattle, perhaps.

 

It's been very helpful to go to Gary's cattledog clinics to see how a stockman uses dogs to work cattle rather than sheep, and to have it explained how to accomplish the work. I'm taking Celt and the youngster, Bute, to an Elvin Kopp cattledog clinic next month and I'm really looking forward to starting the pup on cattle and getting another cattleman/trainer's viewpoint on Celt, what I'm doing wrong, etc.

 

We are fortunate in that our cowherd has grown up with working dogs. The cows are largely dog-broke although some are much less tolerant of the dogs than others. Since the advent of coyotes in our area (and we think we lost a really stupid calf to them a couple of years ago - he wouldn't stay with the herd but kept returning to the solitude of his birth field after the herd was moved elsewhere), some of the cows (especially the older, wiser ones) have become much less tolerant of the dogs but still work pretty well for them.

 

One thing I have to say with cows is that, even when they take off at a run, kicking their heels in the air and bouncing (cows can bounce), they've always gone around me as they have fun having the "cow races" to the pasture gate or whatever goal that happens to be on the other side of me! Ed culls on production but also on temperament, so our cows are generally pretty nice.

 

Ed and I have both been the recipient of an angry and aggressive mother cow's attentions, and they can be deadly serious when the welfare of their little babies appears to be in jeopardy from their point of view (nothing like a calf with a problem to make the mother fiercely protective). That's when you back off and go do something else if you can't make arrangements to get the job done safely.

 

I've fallen down more because I slipped on cow poop than from any kick or jostle I've received from our cows - they tend to be pretty respectful and go around whenever they can. That means it's my responsibility to make sure they have room to go around...

 

Sorry to hijack, Joe Anne, but I often feel like the "odd one out" with my cattle in a sheepdog world...

[Joe Anne]

How about almost fall down! Does that mean I'm an "almost shepherd"! Phoenix did have one sheep bowl him over, but he got right back and did not seem intimidated by that particular group at all and kept after them, does that make him a "real sheep herding dog, yet"... HA HA HA HA! LOL >>>joking!!

I love hearing ya'lls sheep stories...makes me realize, "the more I know.....the more I know I don't know!" HUH???? something to ponder awhile

[kelpiegirl]

Just wanted to add my experience- injuries from/by sheep can be very serious. Some sheep become a bit sour, or are just plain not nice to certain dogs/people, so it is always good to make sure your trainer is there to help you and your dog out.

Julie