the 'down' command

[KrisK]

Jazz has a good 'down' command or at least I thought he did! I can whisper 'down' when he's playing frisbee or ball but last weekend when I asked for a down prior to even entering the sheep pen...he absolutely refused. Was this just the excitement of the moment or should I be 'retraining' the down when it comes to sheep?

[cgt]

There are many better trainers than I, but I would say:

 

(1) Yes, re-train the down on sheep.

 

(2) Be very glad you are having this problem.

 

charlie

[Pipedream Farm]

You probably trained down with distractions (i.e. frisbee), but not the ultimate distraction: moving livestock.

 

I concure with Prof. Charlie T.

 

Mark

[Keegan's Mom]

Agreed. I had to retrain a "lie down" when working with sheep!!! I also had to work on calling him off successfully...he never wanted to quit!!!

[Bill Fosher]

Mr. T is right.

 

This is the problem you want to solve. The alternative (having to train a dog to get up on sheep) is a real bummer.

 

I'd also add that in some cases "lie down" on stock doesn't mean fold up your legs and bring your belly into contact with the earth. Sometimes a standing down -- or a stop -- is fine. If the dog can read sheep, he'll know what's needed once he understands the job at hand. But at the outset you need to insist that "lie down" means stop right now, exactly where you are and stay put until you are told to do something else.

 

I have successfully trained one of my dogs to have the following stop command: "Lie down. Lie Down! LIE DOWN! LIE DOWN OR I'LL COME OUT THERE AND BREAK YOUR NECK! I MEAN IT!"

 

I achieved this by allowing him to take two or three more steps after the first lie down, and by not paying attention to what he was doing after he slowed a little bit, allowing him to creep forward until I had to resort to physical threats.

 

Sometimes, if he's feeling charitable, he'll stop after the third lie down and spare me the extra shouting.

[Keegan's Mom]

I know that I'm a newbie here, but Tess will stop before she will lie down. I don't necessarily want a lie down on her right now because she will quit on me...so I have a "stand" command for her when I want her to stop...that seems to work for me and Tess...but would not work for me and Keegan!!!

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by Bill Fosher:

Mr. T is right.

 

 

I have successfully trained one of my dogs to have the following stop command: "Lie down. Lie Down! LIE DOWN! LIE DOWN OR I'LL COME OUT THERE AND BREAK YOUR NECK! I MEAN IT!"

...Sometimes, if he's feeling charitable, he'll stop after the third lie down and spare me the extra shouting.

Hey Bill- I have that exact command on one of mine, too. (who'd have thought such a compliant little b--ch could have been so opinionated on stock?!?)

 

My younger dogs are not as "good" at that - they tend to lie down after 1 or 2 "lie downs" not nearly as exciting - but much more efficient! (I did learn from some of my mistakes!)

I also have one that does loose too much momentum on a lie down, (he's a bit sticky and tends to "lock on" too much when down), so he has a "stand" or "there" instead, which keeps me from having to "jumpstart" him to move off...

[cgt]

I bought a 3 year old, mostly trained dog last year.

Naturally, when I first started working with him on sheep he had quite a party. My presence wasn't too significant. I could NOT get him to lie down. My throat was sore from so many "LIE DOWN!"s. The sheep were getting unhappy. I finally had to consult with the guy I bought him from. I said, "What's the lie down command on this monster?" He replied, "Oh. He doesn't have a lie down." I said, "!!!!!!!". He said, "He has a stand." I took him out again, he started his party, I said, "Stand.", and he was a statue. Sheesh. I like the stand quite a lot, but it is taking some getting used to after using the lie down for a crutch for so long.

 

charlie

[Keegan's Mom]

I find that I use "lie down" as a reprimand (thanks for pointing that out - Julie). So I have to retrain myself. I used it on Keegan so that I could gather my thoughts and give an effective command, but by then the sheep were getting away from my slow dog...so I've gotten better to use the command when I really mean it for Keegan.

 

Tess is getting quite good at a stand and I think I might like it better because the sheep get jumping from the up and down motions of a lie down with Keegan so I will get to see the difference the "stand" command makes with Tess.

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by Bill Fosher:

The alternative (having to train a dog to get up on sheep) is a real bummer.

Bill makes a good point here worth expanding on. If your dog has a lot of eye and locks up on sheep, then you really don't want to be asking for a lie down, at least not early in the training. Twist didn't have a lie down on her for the first couple of years because I was afraid that lying her down would make her clappy. But if your dog is free moving and not lying down automatically on balance, then a lie down should be trained and enforced. Just don't make the mistake that a lot of novice handlers make, which is to use the lie down as a crutch instead of teaching (or allowing) the dog to learn to feel its sheep and develop appropriate pace. (That is, the dog is allowed to push, push, push with lie down being used repeatedly to prevent the dog from pushing through the sheep or pushing the sheep over you--and to allow the handler to catch up with the action--when the better course of action would be to teach the dog to feel its sheep and pace itself appropriately...).

 

J.

[KrisK]

Thanks everyone We are just starting out - our second lesson is on Saturday. Dan, the trainer, had asked me if Jazz had a 'down' command, and of course, I said yes...and then Jazz didn't down

It is going to be fun teaching my 'old dog' new tricks (he's 7) and of course, 'forgetting' all MY old training - since working sheep is vastly different from 'obedience'

 

Edited to add

 

Thanks for the tip on training the 'lie down' - I'll try to make doubly sure that I won't need to use Bill's 'lie down command'

[Kitch]

Dublin blew me off when I first asked him to drop around sheep (he still will at first if it has been a while since he has seen sheep). It took a few lessons but now he drops on command (most of the time, anyway).

 

My trainer isn't a big fan of yelling; he would have me say the command once and not let Dublin blow me off, but as soon as Dublin hit the ground he was released. That way he learned that dropping (his lie down command) didn't mean an end to the fun, but that blowing me off would.

 

We did a few lessons with multiple short "drop" and releases then gradually asked him for more difficult ones. Dublin's pretty good at it now, but there are times when he is far enough away from me that I can see him thinking about blowing me off - sort of a "yeah? Make me!" when he doesn't agree with the command. And maybe he is right as I am guilty of using the drop command too much, just to give me a second to regroup.

[Bill Fosher]

I'm not a big fan of yelling myself. Here's a very effective way of teaching a dog to lie down and stay put. It takes some patience and a basic of some sort. It's quite counterintuitive, but it has helped a lot with my keen guy whose motto is "I can do it faster next time. Just wait."

 

Stop the dog and lie it down. Let the sheep drift away where they will. Keep the dog down. Repeat, calmly, lie down, as often as needed. If the dog thinks about getting up, tell it to lie down. Walk slowly and calmly toward the dog, At some point, you'll see the dog's body language change from one of poised readiness to one of submission. Give him a pat on the head and send him to gather up the sheep.

 

Once the dog has learned that you *can* enforce your command, he's a lot more likley to take it the first time.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

"Lie down. Lie Down! LIE DOWN! LIE DOWN OR I'LL COME OUT THERE AND BREAK YOUR NECK! I MEAN IT!"

My Ben and your dog should form a club.

 

Ideally, your trainer will have you enforce your full stop in a variety of easy situations, first when the sheep are not moving, then when a stop is needed to make the sheep feel comfortable, etc. The big thing your dog needs to learn at this point is not necessarily strict obedience to commands, but feeling out what to do when the sheep do x, y, and z.

[Turner, Andrea]

I learned the hard way

 

I got lax with the immediate down on Vale when she started to defy my command as she just wanted to balance and balance and well balance

I got discouraged as one handler on a 2 day course made us do 'lie down' 'here' around a pen and with Vale on a line as he said she didn't even know the basics although till a few months before she had a very good 'down' she just grew up and decided to take over!

. She became bored so when he let her loose on sheep she took over.

 

Vale then went to a friend whilst I went back to England - could only take 2 of my 3 dogs with me - and for 3 weeks she worked with him and he is very firm with his dogs and even has his young pups lieing down on the whistle.

 

Well Vale came back here and she went immediate down and I've kept it up ever since and have put my authority into our training sessions - so we have both changed for the better and now we work as a team.

 

By the way she improved so much with my friend that he took her to 2 trials in our class I and she came 3rd both times.

 

And she has progreesed with me or should I say I progressed so much that we have a trial Sunday - class I!!

 

By the way I tend to teach the 'down' on the sheep rather than off sheep except for very basic for obedience sake as told to do by Derek Scrimgeour