lengthing &/or widening Outrun and cutting corners

[kimkathan]

I'll start another thread here. As I stated previously, we're working towards our first trial in Mid May in North Carolina. I have certain criteria set before we undertake the lengthy drive (17+ hours) and all the energy. She's coming along nicely, except she's WAY too tight on the Away side for an Outrun, and when switching directions with her, rather than pulling out (what many call a square flank) she cuts the corner down to around 45 degrees rather than 90. At first I thought that my voice was pumping her up, so I started going back to silent balance work. There was no difference, she just likes to cheat and make the stock really move. I think that this is part of the problem as well on the outrun.

[Deacon Dog]

There are a lot of techniques for widening an outrun and squaring flanks. Which one is best can depend on the dog as well as personal preference. Perhaps some of the experienced posters will discuss what they do in certain situations.

 

But here's a couple of things I learned the hard way: Don't move on until you fix the problems with the basics. You'll regret it when you try more complicated tasks. Be patient. With some dogs if widened too forcefully, you'll have a heck of a time getting them back in when you need it. Some dogs will take time to get back because they can take a lot of pressure from you and the stock.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Hey, I'll be there too. I want to meet you so I'll bump this up so others more experienced will answer and you'll be further along in yuour criteria.

 

There's lotsa ways to address a dog coming in too tight. You probably feel instinctively that her outrun difficulty and her flanking issue are related - you'd be right. She's just not feeling the stock right for whatever reason.

 

I've seen people put pressure on the shoulder by pointing or waving things at the dog as it starts away on the problem side, to widen them out and get them feeling that it's "right" to give to the sheep. I did this with my first dog after reading a couple books. I feel now it was sort of preventing a problem rather than letting him work it out for himself - but different strokes for different folks.

 

This is what I do: I try to catch my dog the SECOND she starts to go wrong and give her a little verbal correction. If she ignores me I'll stop her (not calling her off) and back up and let her try again. Eventually she'll come up with the right answer on her own. Don't give in to the temptation to escalate pressure unless you're sure she's blowing you off mentally (ie, not listening to your stop).

 

You don't, in my opinion, have to work on the outrun and flanking seperately. Fix it at hand and the outwork will get better. Just pull back her outrun to a distance she's comfortable (ie, correct) at, even if it's just 20 yards, until she's understanding what she needs to do on those flanks.

 

Your mileage will vary. I'm sure you'll get lots of additional advice - I just put my two cents in to bump this up because it's an interesting topic. I like to see the different ways people approach a common training challenge.

[NancyO]

I've used a few different techniques, depending on the type of dog.

 

A little bitch I have, I've used the stick at the shoulder to push her out, which for her has worked.

 

2 others, who are softer, I've used Derek Scrimegeours technique where you lie the dog down walk out non-threateningly, step to the side you want the dog to continue out on, pat your leg and call the dog around you, lay it down and regive the flank command (not sure if all the steps are there but that's the idea). This has really worked for these 2 dogs, father and son.

 

 

Had my 15 month old to a clinic recently. Was told he is a natural outrunner. could have fooled me But was told,instead of stepping towards the dog to push him out, to step back and the dog, since he is a natural outrunner, will find his way around his sheep correctly. Which actually seems to be working. Was told if I continued to step towards the dog, the dog will just get tighter and slice more.

 

I have to agree, until your dogs flanks are correct close at hand there's no sense in sending it on a longer outrun. You just develop more problems.

 

Nancy O

[Pipedream Farm]

After you have her successfully outrunning at a particular distance and are ready to lengthen it, send her with you in the middle first to see how it goes. Put her in a down and go between her and the sheep and step away from the balance point as you send her (step opposite the direction you're sending her). As she comes around to the sheep, go back to the middle position and have her fetch them to you. If she's doing fine, you don't need to go all the way to the middle the next time. Basically, the tighter she is, the closer to the sheep you'll need to be before sending her.

Nancy's right. A natural outrunner doesn't correct well by moving towards the dog. I used to do that with one of my dogs and every time she'd simply stop and flank around the other direction. She was reacting to my change in position as I had changed the balance point by moving towards her. She taught me in a hurry what I needed to be doing!

Renee

[kimkathan]

What are peoples thoughts on lying her down, walking out to her and taking her by the collar quietly and walking her to where she should be? Someone recommended this to me, but I'm not sure about the dog knowing/feeling that that's where she needs to be. I agree on not proceeding any further until we have this problem under hand. As she gets tired she will move out off of the stock and flank nicely and I will give her a "good" (she can take alot of pressure, but can be a little soft, so this seems to boost her up) I have been working on patting my leg to call her around me when wanting her to flank compleatly around, so I'll have to try that approach and see if it helps. It seems that she likes to make the stock run and is cutting in too close to make them move faster. We're working on pace and it is coming, but it's very apparent that she dosen't like it (she's starting to act like a 2yo toddler throwing a fit. giving her the pace command does slow her up, but she will put her feet down slowly and almost stomping down in total disgust) She is able to work at around 30 yds clean now bu any further and she's WAY to tight on the "Away" side. She does have and "out" when flanking, but dosen't quite have the concept when doing an outrun (or she's totally blowing me off) Most of the time (90%) I can stop her on an outrun and call her back, but she's so pumped coming back, even if I lie her down for a few moments before re-sending her she almost sling shot's herself out farther. I'll take what I can get at this point. As far as the trial in May, we signed up for the beginnger class, but the lady and her sister who are running it think that we should run in Novice, this is a bit bigger undertaking as far as the distance of the outrun. Did anyone attend the one they held in December (Possum Hollow trial)? Any input on fields/pressure/stock? She can still be grippy once in a while when she gets excited.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Oh, oops, I thought you were talking about Dr. Ben's trial Memorial Day. I won't be at Possum Hollow.

 

I only collar my dogs on sheep if they've done something really awful. Usually, if you merely stop a dog on the gather that's correction enough. Getting to balance is a big rush and you are taking it away. That should really get her to think, "What the heck did I do wrong?" Even speaking to her at the right time can make her wonder what the problem is.