outrun - flank or ssshhh?

[Valhalla]

Here's an odd question: When sending your dog off on an outrun, do you give it a flank command or simply a "ssshhh"?

 

Some handlers have said they prefer to shush the dog off in order to avoid a cross over by accidentally giving the wrong flank command. But, sometimes a shush could cause a cross over as well.

 

Just curious.

[Shoofly]

I think it depends on the situation and the dog. I use 2 different flank commands based on how long the outrun is and how wide i want the dog to go, as well as setting it up differently. I think of shhhhh as my gas pedal as well, so some dogs might hear it frequently, some never at all (like Gael ever needs more gas!)

 

I think the position the dog is set up is more important in preventing crossovers, at least those close to the start of the outrun.

[SoloRiver]

Fly was trained with a flank command so that's what we use. I think it was Bobby Dalziel (?) who was recently touting the merits of the "shhh" rather than a flank, so Gene and I tried to "convert" Fly but Fly and I don't get to see sheep often enough to start messing around with the commands she came with.

 

I wish I could remember what was supposed to be better about the "shhhh."

[juliepoudrier]

I usually use "shhhhh" because originally I wanted it to also speed the outrun (for Twist). Then once at a trial, I set her up to go right, shushed her, and she crossed at my feet. I was told then that had a used a flank command the cross might not have happened. Don't know if that's true, since I think she was telling me when I set her up that she wanted to go the other way.

 

I've always just used the flanks on Kat, mainly because she was taught to stay directly behind and so if I just shushed her there's be no guarantee she'd actually head out in the direction I wanted. But I really like just shushing. I imagine the argument against flanks could be that the flank should be in relation to the stock and when setting up for an outrun the dog might not even be able to see the stock and so doesn't really have a relational connection to make. But that's just wild speculation on my part....

 

J.

[Pipedream Farm]

I only use a shush command at home. For me it's not for speed, but rather when we get in odd real life situations at home and I want her to choose the direction because I'm not sure which is better. This generally doesn't happen in a formal outrun with her at my feet type setup. I've used it when she's going to gather sheep out of sight from me sometimes.

Renee

[cgt]

Seems to me that there are good arguments (such as given above) for each way of sending the dog. I (*try* to) train my dogs to start using either method.

 

charlie torre

[blackacre]

I guess I'd put myself in the "it depends" camp. As far as I'm concerned, if I put a dog on one side, I expect it to go out on that side, regardless of whether I use the flank command or a shush. As to which I prefer, I think I am now more inclined to use a flank command so as to build in flexibility for redirects. My first Open dog is almost impossilbe to redirect on the outrun and sucks at look backs since he is so convinced that he is right and indeed, he is a 20-10 natural outrunner type (I won't discuss the rest of his work around the course )

On the point of flexiblity, I've seen a highly regarded Open handler send his dog out (in training), whistle the opposite flank to bring the dog in across the fetch line and thence back and forth several times on the way out to the sheep and was impressed by the flexibility it gave him for the circumstances I referred to above.

A.

[Shoofly]

Yep, i do some of that kind of stuff but again it depends on the dog. If it's one that's mind gets blown easily, I might not do it much or often. If it's one that could use a little mind blowing (a la Gael) then i'll do it more. I'll also give a walk up from an outrun set up as well, they hate that. I find it helpful when the outrun isn't long though, it draws a dog in so they don't go running to the moon looking for more sheep ("surely she doesn't just want those ones 50 yards away"!) or i don't want them to go around a natural obstacle like my pond that turns a short little gather into a long run out. I can also use that later on if for some reason i want to send a dog tight - a little ss, ss whistle then a flank command and voila, pear-shaped outrun.

 

Hey A, been meaning to tell you, you missed the boat on that Spottie puppy i had left over. She's been coming over for lessons and i swear i'm going to steal her one day, she's incredible. Do we always let the best ones in a litter go?

[blackacre]

Wobin,

Agreed, all good points.

You know I'm waiting for a Gail/Vic, you just gotta breed it first. Hope he's not on his last legs.

A.

[Shoofly]

I'm drowning in dogs right now so don't think it'll be any time soon (Rocky's gotta go!). He's still kicking, has a bunch of pups on the ground now. I think Jenny's getting one.

[Valhalla]

Plus with Gael's quirky heat cycle you never know when you would be able to breed her.

[juliepoudrier]

With a young dog who might not have flanks yet, the shush to send is a logical thing to do and is the main reason I stated it with Twist. I actually didn't put flank commands on her for some time after I started her.

 

And like Renee said, if we're just out in the field and I want the dog to do what it thinks is best as far as going to get the sheep, then I'll give a shush instead of a flank.

 

On other occasions I will deliberately give the flank in the opposite direction than would be natural for the dog, just for an obedience lesson....

 

J.

[Shoofly]

I figure since i'm not planning to breed her that she'll cycle just fine now. She did this summer.

[blackacre]

Vic what? Didn't know he'd been bred.

A.

[workindogs]

I have a slightly different perspective on using a flank command or shhh at the feet. For me, a flank command tells my dogs to square out. If I give a flank to the dog at my feet, they will both square out wide for a REALLY large outrun.....this will normally produce a larger wider outrun than I would typically want. For the most part, I set my dogs up on the side I want them to run and shhhh to produce a more pear shaped outrun. A hard or soft shhhh will determine the rate of acceleration....a second shhh will create additional acceleration. I have one dog that is very wide on the left...if a narrower outrun is really important, I will set him up with his nose pointed straight or slightly inward, tell him "walk up", when he leans or steps straight forward I give him a shhhh (this is a dog that bows out).

 

If the dog is giving me signals that he might crossover, I will give a flank command at my feet as a security measure......then I get a squared out outrun that I don't like so much (but it's better than a crossover).

[Valhalla]

Andrea, Karen Lacy bred their Megan to Vic. Puppies born a few weeks ago. I think they bred Peg to him last year as well.

[Shoofly]

Oops, forgot to answer. He was bred to Randy's Judy (Sam has one of those and so does Flo), also a bitch named Mig, and Megan has baby puppies right now. Oh, and to tom's old Gail bitch too last year. Would have liked one of those myself! don't think there are Peg/Vic pups but i could be wrong. Andrea, Peg is a half sister to Gael so you could check with Karen to see if she did or plans to.

[Pipedream Farm]

Carla also has a Vic x Judy pup.

 

Mark

[TotallyTerry]

I think that the way that you set the dog up is more important than whether you use a shhhhsh or a flank.

 

I prefer a shhhsh because of my tendency to give the wrong flank. I've even found it safer for me to use a shhsh at the pen when a quick flank is needed as it will prevent me from giving the wrong flank. (You definitely need a dog with natural balance and one who knows what the job is for this to work. But if you are dyslexic, you will probably have already discovered that you need a dog with natural balance!)

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Shh for me means "cover" - before an outrun it means "Bring those [whatever]." As Terry said, I'll use it other places to turn the heads back to me. If I use that and then open my mouth before they reach balance, they know they are in Big Bad Trouble. They are supposed to look for sheep even if they are not visible (that happens a lot on my place). If they end up in the wrong place after shhhh they will hear a correction, not just another command.

 

Flanks mean keep going till I say stop. In theory anyway. I do so much without messing with commands that my guys tend to slow or stop on balance regardless. Yeah, sloppy, I know. Don is the Balance King (not to be confused with the scary Burger King). It's the only place he WILL stop reliably so it's tempting to let it happen (whew, my dog stopped - I can think for a second). Also sloppy. We're working on it now.

[Bordersprings]

I recently had this conversation with Vergil Holland. I have a dog with a very wide outrun. When I sent him on an outrun, Vergil asked me what kind of a command I used to send him. When I told him that I used a flank command he told me NOT to use a flank command on a naturally square flanking dog that runs wide as they will simply do a large flank from your feet. To get this dog to tighten his outrun he suggested that I "sshhh" him....and it works. There is a bit more to it but this is the general point.