Cowdogs - when to give ground

[Denise Wall]

Geri wrote in another thread:

 

Granted, the first year she was a bit suicidal, but after surviving the first year, she has been a great asset. I had a sheep bred bitch, totally trained on sheep that I have been trying to trial and have decided it is too hard. I took her to cows at 5 years old and if she survives the same initial stupidity the other one went through, she will make a pretty nice cow dog.

Okay, this brings up a subject I'm very interested in. I've watched some experienced dogs work cattle and even the bravest seem to know when it's a losing battle.

 

First off, let me say I don't know much about working cattle. I've only done it a little for friends or neighbors around here who needed help. I don't work cow calf pairs but I've never worked broke cattle either. The cattle I've worked haven't been the easiest.

 

I have a dog, now retired, that I used some to break replacement heifers. He had tons of heart and courage but never learned to give ground when he needed to, even after several injuries. Whenever he thought something was getting away that wasn't supposed to, it was like life and death with him to stop her/them. Is this just stupidity or what? He was a very hardheaded dog. How long do you give a dog to figure out how not to get itself killed? Is there anything you can do to help them figure it out? Do some dogs never figure it out?

 

I ask because I was thinking about starting to work the more sensible of my Open sheepdogs on cows. I'm hoping he'll figure things out a little better than his uncle but was wondering what if he doesn't?

 

Thanks for any help.

[bcollie]

I personlly think they learn best when they are young. They learn better to get out of the way of flying hooves and learn faster to bite on the nose or the heel, not the belly. In Mike Hubbard's Training Your Dog For Cattle video, he has a section on teaching the dogs to flank correctly on cattle and bite correctly on cattle. It might be of interest to you.

 

In my exerience, like with the two dogs you quoted me about above, it is harder to teach them later, but not impossible. I don't know if it is because when they are older they are braver or less agile or what but the older dogs when first exposed to cattle seem to have more chance of getting hurt. The best is to start them on yearlings or dry cows, preferably on something that is somewhat dog broke. I took Lyn on a couple of cattle drives with dry cows and after she got tired, she was much smarter about how she handled the cows. We used her to help dog break some heifers for a trial and she actually did a pretty good job. Here is a photo of her on the heifers and she never worked a cow until she was 4 or so.

[Denise Wall]

Thanks, Geri, I'll check out the Mike Hubbard tape. I have two others from that series.

 

This dog was older when I started working him on cattle, like around seven. He might not have flanked correctly, but his bite was correct. He surprised me how smart he was about some things (more sensible than he had ever seemed with sheep) as in, if more than one was challenging, he went in and took an effective bite on the head of lead one coming at him, and then quickly got in position to see what was going to happen next. He really seemed smart about how to work some of the problems and his method did work out for him. I'm not sure he would have had that kind of sense as a younger dog. What got him in trouble was stuff breaking and running. He just kept getting run over trying to stop them. Probably correct flanking could have prevented this? He just couldn't seem to handle himself right when he thought something was getting away.

 

Edited to add, he was always trying to head them when he got run over.

[Howdyjabo]

It takes time for the dogs to learn when a calf is running blind-- they learn to let it go after the first failed head(which means they got run over)-- regroup and bring it back again when its actually thinking.

Blind running calves can really hurt a dog that is hitting the head right.

Sometimes(if theres enough room) the dogs can hit it from the side and get it to circle right back where it came from and not be in a position to get run over.

I have one dog that can hit so hard that she can flip a running blind calf over backwards if she can get clear around to the front of it- they get up thinking real clear. So she keeps trying becasue she has been sucessful, shes gonna get hurt one of these days.

 

Mine have learned when a sick calf is not going to move-- i can tell just by the way they go up to it(so far mostly in hindsight) and don't even give a good try at getting it up and going.. One of these days I'm gonna learn to trust them.

 

I also split off sick calves in the pasture and leave them behind-- I have one dog now that will try and leave a calf- I'll get bent out of shape and make it go get it and realize once its up and moving that it was sick and have to call the dog off it-- he looks at me like I'm a real idiot.

 

I also screw up when the dogs are just holding the calves and I insist they move them NOW- sure enough they go in to move them and all hell breaks loose. I used to think it was becasue I pressured them to go in.... now i am thinking that they felt something and were being cautious for a reason.

 

An older dog that has never failed takes it hard when they do fail(and sooner or latter on cattle they will) . A younger dog just learns from the get go-- its just part of the job that its gonna need to outsmart the cattle or wait for help-- at some point.

 

Denise- If I had a good sheepdog and didn't have cattle that needed to be worked- I wouldn't even mess with putting them on cattle. Its not worth the risk- as they are more prone to get hurt than a cattledog.

[Denise Wall]

Karen wrote:

 

"I have one dog that can hit so hard that she can flip a running blind calf over backwards if she can get clear around to the front of it- they get up thinking real clear. So she keeps trying becasue she has been sucessful, shes gonna get hurt one of these days."

 

and

 

"An older dog that has never failed takes it hard when they do fail(and sooner or latter on cattle they will) ."

 

This may be the key. I think he was just too hardheaded to accept failing on cattle. He wasn't used to failing in these situations on sheep. He could stop them dead in their tracks. And I've seen this dog flip a charging overprotective blackfaced ewe. He caught her just right on the nose and she went straight over backward. End of problem. I can't imagine a dog being able to do this to a calf!

 

"Denise- If I had a good sheepdog and didn't have cattle that needed to be worked- I wouldn't even mess with putting them on cattle. Its not worth the risk- as they are more prone to get hurt than a cattledog."

 

Well, it's sort of an ethical dilemma for me. I don't have cattle myself but there are lots of cattle around here that need to be worked on occasion. I just wanted to have a dog I could use if I needed to. You're probably right though. I suppose I could still use Tod if I had to.

[Sue R]

Both Celt and Megan seem to know when a cow is challenging, even if it isn't as obvious as a shaking, lowered head.

 

If a cow charges, the dogs get out of the way if it's risky - retreat, regroup, and "revenge". They seem to "like" being the one doing the charging into the cow's face and get out of the way if she's coming into their's too quickly.

 

If it's a weak charge on the cow's part (usually a heifer, not a cow), the dogs get right into her face until she backs down.

 

I've never seen any of our cattle drive the dog/s off without them coming right back after the cow and making her back down. Sometimes, a cow gets aggressive if she's at the edge of the herd but, after charging out, when the dogs turn on her, she is out of the group, and they can get her turned around and retreating to the herd.

 

I am pleased to say that they both go for the head and/or heels, and don't try cheap shots to other body parts. That must be instinct because I am sure too novice to teach them anything like that.

[Sue R]

Just another comment on this topic. Our old Aussie is almost thirteen. Age and mileage have taken their toll on him. Because he has slowed down a great deal and is not so sure on his feet, we only take him out for chores when we can be sure he is safe around the cows.

 

Normally, Mac's "I'm not working right now" posture and attitude have allowed him access to the herd without the cows reacting, if he is just there with us and not working. But, once last winter, a cow broke from the feeding herd to charge him and bowled him over in front of us and the two young dogs. A trip to the vet revealed nothing but a large and rather painful bruise, thank goodness.

 

Since then, if a cow lowers her head or starts walking towards Mac when we are in the field (like feeding big bales), our little bitch takes off and gets into that cow's face and drives her away from Mac and back into the herd. Megan has done this several times - she seems to be "watching out" for Mac, and a cow can't make a move in his direction without her driving the cow away. Even Celt is picking up on this and has helped a couple of times.

 

Mac is still indispensible when we are walking cows up the chute to a trailer - he barks and grips heels (and tails!) and gets them loaded where the Border Collies just don't yet have the "push" to do it.