Shed at Edgeworth Open Fall Trial

[Denise Wall]

I moved this thread from the picture gallery in case we could generate some good discussion on shedding.

 

The shed the first run was to take four of the seven sheep off and drive them to the exhaust. The remaining three were to then be penned.

 

Here is Christine's shed with Rook.

 

My angle

 

 

Mark's angle:

 

[Denise Wall]

Christine then wrote:

 

Thank you Denise for putting these together! I see that Rook did not cover the first group well enough and allowed that one ewe from the back group to rejoin.

To which I replied:

 

I don't know, Christine. He looks to me like he's taken charge of the group you asked him to and is ignoring the other group behind him just like they're supposed to. Should he really be responsible for a sheep coming around behind him to rejoin from the left group?

Then Robin wrote:

 

I think the thing is, that was a really hard setup for shedding. The group you called him in on was wanting to go to the exhaust in front of them (they were the front sheep, not the back, which was acceptable at this trial) and so was the second/back group. All 7 sheep wanted to go the same way your shed group wanted to go. I never did figure out exactly how to do this shed most efficiently. If you'd go for the back group, the front ones would get out of the field into the exhaust, yet we were supposed to shed sheep off and exhaust them, then pen the left ones. I watched really carefully all day and only saw one person do it the way it seemed to be require and that was Denise. Can't exactly even remember that now though - i think she got her group to face away from the exhaust and could shed off the back group, which was closer to the exhaust. It was really difficult i thought and i didn't see any other groups willing to do it.

[wow thanks, Robin]

 

Okay I think we're caught up now.

[Denise Wall]

Robin wrote:

 

I watched really carefully all day and only saw one person do it the way it seemed to be require and that was Denise. Can't exactly even remember that now though - i think she got her group to face away from the exhaust and could shed off the back group, which was closer to the exhaust. It was really difficult i thought and i didn't see any other groups willing to do it.

Okay, when you first said this I didn't remember what I did but now I do. I worked the group so the pressure was away from the exhaust (exhaust was to the right in the pics) and out in the field the opposite direction. Then I could shed the four back ones off on the head with Mick (who is not good at butt sheds) and drive them away from the pressure and not have to worry about the left group running by us to the exhaust. I worried about this all day before my run and thought I had it worked out.

 

It went as I planned however it backfired on me. The sheep we left were so attracted to the other pressure I created that they ran way out into the field while I was exhausting the shed sheep. Poor Mick, who wasn't in the best shape at that time due to layoff from injury, had to go all the way out there and get them, which took up precious time. We ended up running out of time at the pen. So, my plan didn't work that well for me, even though the shed went okay.

 

Okay back to Christine and Rook, do you feel Rook was responsible for the sheep running past him from behind or was this a no win situation?

[Deacon Dog]

I'm just starting to learn to shed, and one of my biggest problems is getting into the middle of the sheep and allowing them to collapse behind me, a no-win situation for the dog.

 

I wonder if the handler could have prevented the sheep rejoining by staying back a bit and keeping more pressure on her side. Of course, it's difficult to tell from a picture. Plus it sounds like the set-up was difficult, and Border Cheviots are a little crazy anyway.

 

Just food for thought from a novice.

[Shoofly]

Denise -

 

I really did watch that shed all day long as it puzzled the heck out of me and you and Mick were the only ones i saw do it the way you did. I saw lots of folks trying to set it up that way and i sure as heck tried, but the sheep just weren't willing to face that way.

 

As for Rook, nope i don't think he was responsible, i think it was a no win situation. The only thing that would have stopped that (the sheep ran out and around Christine and Rook both, not just past them) was if Rook had been turned onto the wrong group.

 

I clerked a bunch that day and the judge told me it was a situation where she wished maybe she could have run a dog around the course and tried it first, and would have known more about how the sheep would act on this task.

 

Tony - i don't think it would have helped. Christine and Rook were both clearly in the gap and worked away the shed sheep. Problem was that the shed sheep were the front sheep so no *direct* pressure was on the back sheep to keep them from feeling like they could make a break for the exhaust, which was in the direction the shed/front sheep were being pushed.

[Valhalla]

It happened really fast and before I knew it, there she was running around us both. I wonder if I had not turned my back to the group of 3, but instead stayed shoulder to shoulder with each group when I was walking with the shed off group to take them to the exhaust, then maybe I could have seen that one ewe before she broke and had Rook turn around to push her back?

 

I watched a lot of people do this shed and I remember wondering if it would be worse to lose my sheep out into the field (and some sure wanted to run back up the field like Denise's did) or to risk something like this happening.

 

I didn't get my pen either, but this was also the same run where time was called on me accidentally. I looked at my watch and had about 2 minutes left, so I had to stop everything and ask the judge. The judge told me to continue, but by that time I was a little distracted and my "flow" to shed was gone.

[Denise Wall]

Tony, it's possible the handler could have blocked that sheep. But then again, as you noted, sheep like that can double their determination to do the thing you don't want when you try to block them. And that one looks pretty determined to me.

 

As for the way I did it -- Mick is not a very mild dog. If we had kept the sheep more settled and I had not popped him in a small opening, forcing them off the other way too vigorously, I think that plan might have worked for me. I was over-worried they would double back and I overdid it. Live and learn I guess.

[blackacre]

So let me get this straight. You were required to split (not shed) 4 off and put them in the exhaust and thererafter pen the remaining 3? And the pressure was to the exhaust, to our right in the pics?

A.

[NancyO]

Christine,

 

What fantastic pictures and they tell the story so well!

 

A few questions:

 

Did you regroup and shed again?

 

Was there a gate to prevent the sheep from exhausting themselves?

 

If there was no gate across the exhaust and the sheep ran into the exhaust, was your run over and you got a dq?

 

If you had turned your dog onto the sheep that was coming from behind, I would think you would have lost points for the dog being on the wrong sheep. Maybe if you saw the sheep coming, you could have gone after it with your crook and hopefully forcing it to go back to the others, and maybe it would have run faster to join up with the wrong group.

 

From the pictures it doesn't look like there was any problem with the actual shed, and with Rook coming in behind you, should have kept the other 3 sheep away.

 

Nancy O

[steve clendenin]

Christen I'm going to play Tuseday night dog handler. It is alway easy when you are not there. Don't let me offend you.

If you look at pictures #5,6,7, and 8 Rook was right if it had been a stright forward shed but with what you had to do, do you think it would have helped to have flanked Rook on a way flank to over cover the shedded sheep. By doing that he might have put enought preasure on the rogue sheep and it might have turned back to the other two sheep left in the shedding ring. If not you would have had him in position to turn him on to the rogue sheep making it go back to the two in the sheeding ring.

Yes it would have cost you a few points but 7 or 8 points are better then 0. Also you lost your pen points.

I had a gentleman Mr B C himself tell me more then once get ALL way around the course doing what ever it takes and leave it in the judges hands.

I'm not saying do sorry work but sometimes you can not do it by the book and make it work.

[steve clendenin]

Just thought of something I should have put in the last post. If you remember the douple lift runs at Rome GA. two years ago there was no way to do the int. shed right. You were not going to run the shedded sheep out of the shedding ring unless you used your dog. Yes I gave up some points but I got my shed (if you remember I don't thing anyone trided to do it right but a couple of time and they woulg give up like the rest of us and use the dog).

Also at that trial I tred to pen by the book and it cost me a place at the end of the day.If I would have helped at the pen and gave up a couple of points it would have been a better payday.

[Valhalla]

Nancy O wrote:

Did you regroup and shed again?

 

Yes, I re-grouped and shed again. Ran out of time at the pen.

 

If there was no gate across the exhaust and the sheep ran into the exhaust, was your run over and you got a dq?

 

There was no gate across the exhaust and if you lost ALL your sheep back there, you were off course and your run was over.

 

Was there a gate to prevent the sheep from exhausting themselves?

 

There was no gate to prevent the sheep form exhausting themselves.

 

 

Steve Clendenin wrote:

do you think it would have helped to have flanked Rook on a way flank to over cover the shedded sheep. By doing that he might have put enought preasure on the rogue sheep and it might have turned back to the other two sheep left in the shedding ring.

 

Steve, yes. I think if I had flanked Rook even a little "away to me" then that might have put enough pressure on that rogue ewe to prevent her from wanting to join her buddies going to the exhaust. Also, if I have kept half an eye out on the group left in the shedding ring I could have also turned Rook back to catch her, even if it cost me a few points, but more time.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

This is so awesome! Having the pictures and the discussion makes things so clear. This morning I had to cut out a ewe that had had twins, left them, and returned to the flock. I kept getting another ewe that wanted to join her and then the new mother kept trying to steal yet another ewe's lambs. I was able to use a lot of the points raised in this discussion to keep everything where it belonged and the ewe put up with her own lambs within a minute or so, with no trauma to the lambs.

 

So, you guys probably saved a pair of twins with this discussion. Thanks especially to Christine for being the "scapegoat".

[steve clendenin]

It is a lot easier to do it on this side of the fence then on the other side. Things are taking place and you know the clock is ticking. I doubt if I would have done it if I were in your shoes, but maybe we might be able to use it down the road.

[NancyO]

Rebecca,

 

you're right. I've used this also when splitting the sheep off and have turned my dog back on the ones that are trying to rejoin. I knew I wasn't going to stop 30 ewes!

 

I guess this is what they mean by practical stock work during trials, but clock is ticking and points are being deducted.

 

Thanks for the pictures and the discussion, I can see myself mentally thinking about it in the shedding ring the next time I am there, so if I'm slow and seem in another world, it is because I am visualizing the pictures and discussion that has been posted. At least that will be my excuse

Nancy O

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Hey, you can't get much slower than me! Please no comments from the peanut gallery.

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by steve clendenin:

Things are taking place and you know the clock is ticking. I doubt if I would have done it if I were in your shoes, but maybe we might be able to use it down the road.

And in addition, time was called on me accidentally so I got distracted. Had my mind been 100% focused on the task, perhaps I would have paid more attention to that back group? Who knows?

 

One thing for sure is that this has been a great learning tool. Thank you Denise and Mark for the pics and thanks to all for your comments and suggestions!

[steve clendenin]

I wish this discussion would have continued.

After having 4 or 5 days to think about the shed, and not knowing what was said in the handlers metting. I was thanking that this shed might have been better done, doing it like a international shed. bring the dog in and on to the three shep that were to be penned. Then with the draw to the exhaust pen it would be some what easy to drive off the four sheep to the exhaust pen, leaving the dog to hold the three sheep to be penned. This would also allow you using your dog to keep the three shep from running up the field and it taking up your time to regather them, and getting them back to the pen. 15 to 20 seconds can make or break you at a trial.

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by steve clendenin:

I was thanking that this shed might have been better done, doing it like a international shed. bring the dog in and on to the three shep that were to be penned. Then with the draw to the exhaust pen it would be some what easy to drive off the four sheep to the exhaust pen, leaving the dog to hold the three sheep to be penned.

Sam, Robin, Denise - please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe we were told to shed off the 4 and have the dog drive them past the plane of the exhaust in order for the shed to be complete, then pen the remaining 3.

[Shoofly]

Exactly right Christine. This shed would have been easy if we could have been shedding off the sheep to be penned and just taking them to the pen. Problem was it was nearly impossible to get the sheep to draw any direction other than to the exhaust. So if you took the back group, the front group that was to be taken to the pen was standing in between the back group and the exhaust, and moving towards the exhaust.

[ccnnc]

Heya,

 

I put the two sequences side by side -- not an exact timeframe match, but close enough....

 

looking at it this way, and IMHO, the problem was that you didn't move into the gap betwwen the set of 3 and 4, that meant the dog had to flank around behind you, putting a lot of pressure on the lead sheep in the set of three -- it never looked at the dog directly, but as the dog flanked you can see the ears peak and the beginning of the run.

 

and, even tho the dog never looked at the single, the dog was close enough to spook it away from the two....