Guest newguy Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 I have a 2 yr old dog that scores in the mid 70's in pro-novice but always loses 6 to 10 points off of the outrun. When i set him up for the outrun he does not spot the sheep, i have had him to 3 trials and he is still having the same trouble. He does not want to run out if he does not see the sheep. I can get him to gobut i have to keep telling him to go. At home i have went on different fields and sent him blind and have to tell him to get out there but once he has been on the field a couple of times he knows there are sheep and goes out well. My question is what do I do to keen him up so he wants to run out and find sheep even if he does not see them from the start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 Thad, How about lay him down and send another dog for a gather? while he's watching. Think that may work? Some dogs hates that and may give him just enough jealousy fueled gather. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mckaycanada Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 Hey: I had the same problem so I tried hiding the sheep every time. If ever the sheep go somewhere strange I run to the house for the dog. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 If it were my dog, I'd first teach him to "look" for sheep on a field. If the sheep are visible, why does the dog need to do a blind outrun? If the dog always does a blind outrun and never looks for sheep before being sent, I would think you'll end up with a dog that always runs the fence line. Fixing this should save to the 6-10 points your loosing on the outruns at trials, especially since most trials do not have blind outruns. At the trials, I always try to be behind the post before the sheep are settled on top, that way my dog's attention is drawn to the movement on top. Now he knows there are sheep on the field and where they are. Once the sheep are settled, then I walk to the post and send my dog. If I can't be on the field before the sheep are settled, I'll let my dog watch the beginnings of a few runs so he'll know generally where to expect to see the sheep. When I do get on the field and befre I send him, I tell him to "look" and wait till I see him lock in on the sheep (not all dogs give an obvious indication they see the sheep). ------------------ Mark Billadeau [This message has been edited by Pipedream Farm (edited 10-02-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 I too have found a "look" command to be very helpful. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcollie Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 I use 'look' also but I was told that I should be using something else because I also use 'look' or 'look back' for a look back. On the look back we want the dog to turn around and look for more sheep. At the post, we want the dog to look ahead for sheep - a completely different movement. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I am still using look because he knows it but I haven't done a double lift in a competition yet. Do most people use the same command for these two different things or do they have different commands? 'Looking' for answers. Thanks Geri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest newguy Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 How would you go about teaching a dog to look for sheep? I think they either look or they dont. This dog is looking all over the field but never sees the sheep, especially on a flat field. I have set the sheep on a slight hill side and he has no trouble, it seems when they are a little tougher to spot is when he has trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Start walking towards your sheep and start saying "look". Keep walking until your dog sees the sheep and then send him *immediately*, like as his eyes hit the sheep. Don't stop to set him up or anything, just send him. Geri - I use look for both but put the emphasis on "back" on the look back. All look means is that there are sheep our there in front of me to look for. It probably would be better to use different commands but i've not done it. Maybe on the next dog! -Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 One of the fields I work sheep in has some heavy bush areas and the sheep seem to blend in with the background. So I use "Where's the sheep" to get my dog to look at them. I don't send him until he shows me that he has seen the sheep. Works great even in a large field, it has gotten my dogs to zero in on the sheep, and our outruns have gotten alot pretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank 5 Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 I also had problem with my dog on trail when he did not see the sheep. He run in direction I send him but than he ended running in almost strait line towards the sheep. And here is my question. What command u give to dog to go wide and mainly how u teach it? I got my dog to go in direction I show him let say to find hidden sheep in bushes I did use same method like with retrievers. When he was pup I used to throw the ball with underarm swing and pointing in direction of flying ball saying fetch. And now it works with sheep also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Thad, It sounds as if your dog came from East coast. First time I was out in the plains,one of my dog had a similar problem. It was on a flat wheat field with no boundaries,i.e.,fences,trees. Friend of mine send her dog out for gather and when he saw sheep coming back,he was most shamed. Next day he went out looking for them, his outrun was far more wider than his usual and in an apple shape but he did go looking for them. I don't know how one teaches a dog to look for sheep,especially in flatter areas. I live in an area where the hills are constantly dipping and rolling and if a dog is not out looking for them,they could miss half or more,so they learn from an early ages to go look for sheep as I walk out with them for their search. When they come upon a packet,I let them bring them to me and ask for a down/look back and off we go on another search. For a few months,they are confused by the whole thing but eventually they settle for the hunting for more. In young dogs,time to time,they display a non-trusting behaviour in me and a desire to sticking to work the first packet they come along making it difficult to let them go out and look for more. They do get over it as long as they are able to spot and lift more. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Frank, it sounds like when your dog does not see the sheep and you give your directional command, he thinks he's going to retrieve not fetch sheep. I'd follow Shoofly's training suggestion using a different word than the word you use for retrieve. Soon, your dog will believe that there are sheep in the direction you're looking and he will act accordingly (outrun in that direction). ------------------ Mark Billadeau Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest newguy Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Thanks for all the suggestions. I might end up just feeding the mongrel some grain and be done with it. I think i have tried everything suggested. If i wait too long for him to look for sheep he loses interest and will start to wander away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 That's why you walk towards the sheep, even if you have to walk all the way to them to start with. Eventually he'll look when you're a distance away and standing still but you have to build up to that. -Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Thad Another benefit to the method Robin proposes is that you are walking toward the sheep, your body is pointing out the direction of the sheep and the dog begins cue off your body position to find the sheep. Another thing I do with a dog that knows to look but has not found the sheep is to tell the dog to "look", say a soft and gentle "no" (not punishing) when the dog looks the wrong direction and say "look" again, when the dog looks in the correct direction say "there". Even if the dog doesn't yet see the sheep, he now knows what direction to go to find them. Elizabeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borderkatahdin Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 This might be way off base, but sounds almost like he might be insecure, or unsure of what you are asking of him. Maybe go back to shorter outruns, and build his confidence? Then I would try working him on different farms other than the trial field if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted October 3, 2002 Report Share Posted October 3, 2002 Hey Thad - If the biscuit eater loses interest - I agree, sell the puppy... Like Inci and John, I hide sheep, or scatter 'em...I use the term "see sheep" at the post or walking to it to avoid the problem Geri mentions...and I've laid the dog down in the middle of the outrun and waited and waited and waited until I've seen the head turn in the direction of the sheep...prick ears help here...but if the little cur loses interest before spotting 'em, maybe you can find a frisbee home... Hey, and Mark, a dog's pretty useless if it can't do a blind outrun in this part of the country... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 10-03-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peggy Posted October 7, 2002 Report Share Posted October 7, 2002 Speaking of blind outruns how do you teach this? I have a dog that I bought trained and had never really thought about blind outruns until at a trial this weekend. I could see sheep at the post but I'm not sure from her level she could. I sent her out and about 1/2 way she stopped & turned around and looked at me like where are they! After several redirects she found them but needless to say not many points for the outrun. Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest newguy Posted October 7, 2002 Report Share Posted October 7, 2002 The biscuit eater found his sheep on the weekend and got me a cheque so i guess he can stay with me a while longer. The threat of a frisbee home worked and he got out to the sheep with no directions. thanks for the advice borderkatadin I think you had the answer and the dog is a bit unsecure with getting out the distance. I tend to push my young dogs training a bit to fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted October 7, 2002 Report Share Posted October 7, 2002 newguy, congrats on the placement. More importantly, congrats on figuring out the source of the problem. It's amazing how often our dog's problems stem from us. ------------------ Mark Billadeau Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borderkatahdin Posted October 7, 2002 Report Share Posted October 7, 2002 Glad to hear your dog found the sheep, . No fun when you get shot down before you get a chance to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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