Alicia Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 Well, I'm back! See my General Disscussion post bout that. Dally is doing really well, we spent 2yrs working on a dairy calf farm and she has alot of drive and bite and doesnt take no for an answer. Working on the farm however has screwed up other training. Dally was used to hold calves in an area(like a corner or shed), help push calves to other pens, push them around so I could check everyone over, and bunch and hold in the pasture. She was a great asset to me those two years.. Problems... 1)NONE of her job required her to fetch stock to me, in fact most of it was working with me to push them thru corridors, or to an area. She has a great outrun and will bunch em all up but its the last leg that she doesnt get. She literally flies out there puts em up (thats our command actually "put em up") and waits for me to walk to em. 2)most of our work was right turns. It's my fault really but she has a very reliable right but next to no left directional. I can send her right with a command "right" or I can send her and she chooses right without fail. "Left" usually takes a few times of telling her left, correcting her when she goes right and saying left again until..usually the third or so time..she goes left but it's weaker then her right. So..we no longer work on the calf farm and instead have started working a friend of mine's Icelandic sheep. The sheep are not dog broke but we seem to be doing ok, they stay pretty well bunched and Dally is talented enough that she is adjusting her presence to get the sheep to move smoothly and she doesnt back down when they wont move (thank you cow calf pairs of beef cattle on the dairy calf farm!) She'll do whatever it takes to get them to move. Wow I'm rambling! We are working on fetching now and she's starting to work on the opposite side of the herd well. I need tips with helping her learn to balance to me and find the sweet spot rather then weaving back and forth. Any suggestions? Maybe its just somethin I ahve to be diligent and hope I didnt screw her up to bad. We are working alot on our left and she's getting it a little quicker but its pretty much forced to get her to go left, work the sheep to the right. (Sorry this is not technical..lol) Any suggestions? Or again is it just something that will take repeatition? Any help would be greatly appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia Posted December 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 No thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 What I would do is work on those lefts And do it so that left is the only sensible option, so she gets used to that direction. Not sure what you mean on the last leg of the fetch? Is she just getting up behind them and laying down? As to the flip flop, if you get her further off the sheep, that will stop. Cattle don't move (generally) as fast at sheep, so she's probably filling her time. Get her to down off the sheep, and then walk her up- then the sheep will leave, and your job is to keep her off them. She sounds prettty neat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia Posted December 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 Thanks! I've been doing alot more on the left so she's using that side, not all work to the left because she gets frustrated after a while so I go right a bit to keep her from burning out. The lift is where she has a problem, she doesnt bring the sheep to me. She'll hold them together in one area all day long but she doesnt move them to me. She'll drive em with me wallking behind and keep em in one bunch by looping around to stop any from getting ahead but she doesnt bring them to me. She's starting to get it though Ive got her moving them in a counter clockwise circle and I walk so that as she makes them circle I end up i the front and then I walk and she's starting to push them to me that so I think in time she'll get it. I dont know if this is the right thing to do..but it seems to be working. It'd be fun to trial her someday but for now this is just to mentally and physically work her..and for fun Thanks, she is a really neat dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 I am much less experienced than you so take this with a grain of salt! My dog had great natural balance when I first started him, but I was dismayed to see it actually getting worse over the past several months (he was started this late spring). I was working with some trainers who are very nice people and especially one woman is very very talented...but they are both primarily kelpie trainers. I didn't think that would make much difference, but in my last lesson with a very well-respected BC trainer we fixed Odin's flipping back and forth "windshield washer" problem very easily. This BC trainer told me that kelpie people really like you (the handler) to directly "head" the sheep. I found this to be true. In fact, I had been yelled at quite a lot if I didn't work hard on positioning myself so that I was at 12 o'clock, the sheep were in the middle, and as I moved my dog was supposed to basically be at 6 o'clock or thereabouts to balance. If the sheep slipped past me or I let them go past, I was told I wasn't setting it up right. I was also told repeatedly if I was even close to on the same side of the sheep as my dog it wasn't going to work. In the meantime, Odin kept getting progressively more unwilling to come to balance and relax there. He also was coming in to close, and thus pushing the sheep too hard, so it was harder and harder for me to stay at the heads of the sheep without them banging into my knees or slipping past me. When the sheep are up on you, you start getting surrounded by them and it's very hard to turn also. I was told when the sheep were pushed up on me to come through and correct him, which wasn't really "sticking" I was also told when he got like a windshield washer to "put him down", I guess as a measure to just stop him from doing that. But like I said, I wasn't able to make these fixes work well enough to help us and was getting frusterated at the negative progress I was seeing. Then in my lesson last week, a totaly different turn of events with the BC trainer - I was told don't head the sheep, don't try to do it, and when they are coming right at you, take off in another direction! It was like seeing the light for me and Odin. He said that when I head the sheep, Odin was getting confused because he HAD balanced and his job was done. So, he was experimenting with useless behaviors, hence the window washering back and forth and the coming in too close. So, if I took off in another direction as soon as the sheep are coming right for me, it gives him something to do again! Plus, I can make sharp, sudden, angular turns that way rather than getting caught in the flock and not being able to turn because there are sheep heads past my knees. He suddenly looked great again, I mean it was like night and day. This trainer said such exercises would help him to naturally develop his own sense of balance and correct distance and it sure looked like it was working to me. Plus, I could shut up and stop correcting him for being too close and work on such commands as "there" and concepts like "I am in the picture kiddo and don't you forget it" and "down means down until I tell you different". And as a GIANT plus, this new way will save my knees. I am pregnant right now so it also feels about a thousand times safer to get out from in front of the sheep and even be able to walk not-backwards. Odin is weaker on his away side, so this method also allowed me to really work that - by taking a strong angular turn to the right (if I was facing him and the sheep, left if I was walking forwards away from them), he had to come away far to the counterclockwise position to correctly balance, whether he liked it or not! Such a strong angular turn *would* put me on the same side of the sheep as Odin for just a second, but the movement of the sheep and my coming at him seemed to provide strong pushes for him to flank quickly and correctly. I could do several of these and then give him just a slight turn the other way to allow him to do a much more fine-tuned come-bye. Again, I don't know much myself, and don't know whether this will help you or not. But is was such a "eureka" moment that really helped me and my dog 1) develop/practice good balance naturally, 2) work fetching correctly, and 3) work his weak direction, and so I thought I would share. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia Posted December 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 Thanks Ooky thats great suggestions! Dally window washes when she has to bring them to me at all. The sheep aren't dog broke is part of the problem so they dont move off right away and when she goes to the opposite side she will either just stand back and look at me or she'll start window washing at any head or heel that is not in the herd. Her main focus is on keeping them there until I get there, which is my fault from the dairy farm. She learned her job there VERY well and is still trying to do some of the components on the sheep. Its hard to explain what I've been doing..wish I had a video tape. I'm going out tonight so I'll see if I can think a way to word it clearer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 Now, who out there thought I wouldn't reply I have a Kelpie. She has only ever trained with BC trainers. I have never heard of this having to be at 6:00 stuff. Balance is balance. The dog needs to find it. The exercises you are doing with Odin will solidify that, however, you have to be careful when he comes up, in turning hard, because it become a habit with dogs- they will push hard, then, have to flank to balance. As to coming to close on the sheep - that's what young dogs should learn first off- proper distance, so you won't have a big issue with that. I have *never* heard anyone ask ME to head sheep. That's just plain odd. In the beginning stages, your dog should keep the sheep to you. Kelpies are heading/gathering dogs. THEY should do the heading. I shall have to find some video of my Kelpie working without the sheep being set up right, and with me at 6:00... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 Hi Julie, I have no doubt you are doing it right! I'm just repeating what was told to me and what DID conform to what my instruction from kelpie trainers has been so far - which has been stay directly in front of the sheep or have the dog bring the sheep directly in front of me and then keep them there. And to always be dog, sheep, me. As for the pushing and then needing to flank, I don't think I am describing it right, because with this excercise, his pushing was much more responsive to the sheep and my movements than it had been, and his distance and feel for pace was naturally a lot better. In some cases there was not much pushing at all, just flank, flank, flank, to hold them in to me while we moved around but did not cover much ground... However I will be careful to watch that! Thanks for the tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 No worries, I am never sure I am doing it right But, the strict positioning is inane to me- that is not real life Unless, of course, you are running in asca arena trials Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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