Question. . .

[prosperia]

Becca, I dont see your comment. If its your first and you had to go to your email to confirm, it wont show. But it should work now if you try it again.

[Genie]

I feel that encouraging the desire to fetch in a dog can be useful when the dog matures. They don't all turn on to it as adults and I do think there is a window where it has to be encouraged in some dogs or that drive (that already exists) can be directed to the wrong things. I would rather have to deal with a dog that is obsessed with fetching a toy than one that is obsessed with chasing and harassing other dogs. A dog that loves to fetch can be redirected to the toy if the need arises.

 

Now, to address the video in the original post. I really hate scrutinizing other people. I would hate others to do that to me, so I will restrict my comments to what I would and would not do. I would NOT have a pup that young jumping for a frisbee. I would roll a frisbee for a pup that young to see what it would do and encourage any interest. I would NOT encourage jumping, twisting or turning. I would play fetch with the pup as it grew stronger and developed more coordination.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I posted three times but I still don't see it. It wasn't my first youtube post, either. I've heard their mail is really slow since it got taken over. I hope all three posts don't show up all of a sudden!

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Genie:

Now, to address the video in the original post. I really hate scrutinizing other people. I would hate others to do that to me, so I will restrict my comments to what I would and would not do.

Haven't you ever heard the joke that if you get two dog trainers together the only thing they'll agree on is what a third trainer is doing wrong? Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

On a more serious notes, your comments on what you do and don't do are great guidelines. Quinn was retrieving at 7 weeks, but for a while a game of fetch might involve one or maybe two reps then he was off to something else. I did encourage him to fetch but accepted he had the attention span of a strobe light for the first several weeks he was with me.

 

I also made a big point of having him fetch all kinds of toys so I didn't end up with a dog who would only retreive a certain brand of yellow tennis balls (the way I've seen other dogs do). And I always put his fetch toys up so I was the one who initiated games, not my toy obsessed dog. I didn't want him following me around jabbing me with toys (again, the way I've seen other dogs do). Of course, he will stare holes into me trying to will me outside for a game of fetch but that comes with the territory of living with a toy obsessed BC

[SoloRiver]

I have friends who obsess over developing "tug drive" or "ball drive" in their Border Collie puppies destined for dog sports. I'll admit I don't get it either.

 

Solo was a veal for a year and didn't know what toys were when I got him -- now he'll do anything for Ball.

 

Fly was a working sheepdog and didn't know what toys were when I got her at the age of three. What's more, she wouldn't tug at all at first because of some exaggerated respect issues (if I grabbed the other end of a tug toy, she'd immediately relinquish hers). I clicker trained her to grab the tug and maybe a day later she was a tugging fiend. She is one of those dogs that hits the tug at the end of a flyball run and goes spinning around me in the air.

 

If you have to work so hard to build drive in a Border Collie, there is something weird about the Border Collie.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by SoloRiver:

I have friends who obsess over developing "tug drive" or "ball drive" in their Border Collie puppies destined for dog sports. I'll admit I don't get it either.

Maybe it's a hold-over from other, less driven dogs they've trained? My first agility dogs needed to be taught to tug and then to enjoy tugging. Retrieving was fun but not insanely fun the way it is for Quinn. Prey drive is something I've nurtured in him, but certainly there was no need to obsess about it .

 

I think some people put so much energy and time into making sure their dog is obsessed with toys because they believe it gives them control over reinforcers while keeping the dogs totally pumped. A dog who is totally geeked about agility over all else, for example, might be seen as a potential problem because he could reinforce himself by doing the equipment regardless of what the handler is doing. I don't train to the high, high levels so that isn't something I stay up nights thinking about. In fact, I put at least as much effort into making sure Quinn could switch off as I did into encouraging his fetching and tugging. I have to live with him the other 23 1/2 hours of a day when we're not doing agility.

 

If you have to work so hard to build drive in a Border Collie, there is something weird about the Border Collie.

 

I didn't fully understand what drive was until I got Quinn. I had a sheltie with some serious prey drive, but his insecurities often masked that. And though he loved agility, he had his limits to how much he was willing to train. Quinn on the other hand is always ready to play or train and always sorry to see either end.

[Liz P]

My first agility dog was a low drive BC (still high drive compared to other breeds). I know, odd for a BC, but he was purebred (imported hill lines). He didn't race full speed around the course like most BCs, but he did run very fast. He never dropped a bar, never missed his contacts and I had time to correct him before he went off course if I made a mistake. I gave up agility when he retired and I only had my "normal" BCs because I didn't enjoy it as much. With my other dogs I felt like I was just a burden for them, like I was holding them back. With my first dog I felt like we were partners. Now I focus all my time and energy on herding because it gives me that same feeling of working with my dogs as a team.

 

Oh, and I didn't use treats, tug toys or balls when I ran agility. My dogs did it because they loved it, that was the reward. I found that if I did use a reward other than praise the dogs would be less precise and rush to finish. The same goes for dog sledding and sheep herding, the activity itself is the reward. The dogs hardly even need praise and telling them "good dog" in the middle of the activity just serves to break their concentration.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Liz P:

I gave up agility when he retired and I only had my "normal" BCs because I didn't enjoy it as much. With my other dogs I felt like I was just a burden for them, like I was holding them back. With my first dog I felt like we were partners. Now I focus all my time and energy on herding because it gives me that same feeling of working with my dogs as a team.

I haven't given up agility, but it hasn't been the same for me since my first agility dog died. Like yours, he was a partner in the truest sense of the word. Quinn is in training and while agility still may not be the same, he scarcely gives me any time to notice since he's so fast and keeps me constantly on my toes.

 

The same goes for dog sledding and sheep herding, the activity itself is the reward. The dogs hardly even need praise and telling them "good dog" in the middle of the activity just serves to break their concentration.

 

It depends on the dog and the activity, I think. Not every dog is going to find agility so rewarding that they will happily do it fast and accurately without some additional motivation. Some dogs even need to be taught to find agility fun and rewarding.

 

I use toys and food a whole lot in agility. I wouldn't think of pulling them out when Quinn is on sheep. The work is definitely the reward for him there and you're absolutely right that I'd just distract him with any other "motivators." Some day he may feel that way about agility, but right now it's just a whole lot of fun punctuated with play and treats. Agility is a game so I make sure it stays fun for him. Sheep is serious work to him so I just provide the transportation to his business meetings