Now What?

[geonni banner]

Nine months ago I acquired what seems to be a Border Collie. She was a rescue. I named her Sugarfoot after a very fine Collie/ GSD mix I owned in the ‘80’s. Being of a disposition to “exploit” the abilities and inclinations of my dogs, I set out to get a picture of how I could best employ a dog of her character and intelligence in a sheepless, urban setting.

I knew that I wanted to teach her to be calm and steady in the rather chaotic city environment in which I live, and that I wanted a partner to help me cope with the agoraphobia which circumscribes my life. It was my understanding that she would need to be “given a job to do,” and that she would be a very active dog that would require regular challenges to her physical body and her supple and quick mind. I felt that I could not only provide these things for her, but that it would benefit me as well to implement them. Such has been the case.

I am not embarrassed to say that I love this dog more than any other that I have owned or known, and I have know a great many dogs. The solemn-faced warnings about getting a Border Collie that I was given by many of my “doggy” friends have proved thus far to have been unwarranted. She is, to be sure, a challenge in many ways. But I have enjoyed meeting those challenges and wouldn’t trade this little black dog for anything.

 

What I was not prepared for was the storm that surrounds this breed. The “Dog Wars” of which I was, until my arrival on the BC Boards, completely ignorant. I am disabled. My disability is agoraphobia, which limits where and under what conditions I can go out in the world. One good thing about this is that I have a lot of time to pursue my varied interests. I have spent a few hours a day for the last few weeks reading posts, Archived Threads, and F.A.Q.s on the BC Boards. I am attempting to get a sense of (real) Border Collies and Border Collie people. What I am discovering is by turns delightful and deeply dismaying.

In addition to my time spent on the Boards, and my time spent playing and training with my dog, (there is a huge overlap in these two activities,) I have purchased and read “A Useful Dog” and “The Dog Wars” by Donald McCaig. I read “Nop’s Trials” and “Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men” respectively when they were published, so I was familiar with the author. I spent today working my dog on sits, downs and recalls – and I read “The Dog Wars” between sessions of training and tennis ball/ Frisbee sillyness.

 

I feel like I’ve been worked over with a ball-peen hammer. My question is this. What can I do? How can I help make this better?

 

Thank God I found all this out before I applied for an ILP number. (No money for the infidels!) I’ve completely lost my taste for hunting up AKC events to compete in. I was interested in flyball and agility – and will probably still learn these two activities with my dog – but you can bet your butt it won’t be on an AKC course.

I have also conceived a yen to “expose” Sugarfoot to sheep, in a controlled setting with someone who can give me a realistic idea if she has any talent for herding. (A strange turn of events for a 57 year-old vegetarian…) And what if she does? I have no idea if I can afford to give her “quality herding time” on a regular basis. Will I have to move to the country? (Mind you, I spent part of my youth on an egg farm, so I’m not all that dismayed by the notion – but it would be a big change.)

 

But what else can I do? Part of me wants to pull a “Fight Club” and blow up the building in which the AKC keeps it’s registration database. But, oh crap!, I’m a professed non-violent Buddhist that would never really do that sort of thing. So I’m asking for suggestions. Is there a useful thing or things that I can do for the protection of this wonderful and completely unique breed of dogs? Is the working Border Collie an endangered species? I am concerned about a sufficiently large gene pool to keep this critter around. I’m certainly not thinking of going out and breeding stock dogs. (My girl is spayed, thank you very much.) I’d be better prepared to fly a space shuttle. But there must be SOMETHING. Any ideas would be welcome.

I’m happy to buy wool products – but please don’t ask me to eat lamb!

[Tranquilis]

No advice for your predicament, but I have to say that's an outstanding shot of your furkid!

[geonni banner]

No advice for your predicament, but I have to say that's an outstanding shot of your furkid!

 

Awww shucks! Thanks! We sent it off to BARk Magazine for their smiling dogs page.

[desertranger]

Where do I start. Someone hand me a ball peen hammer; no a bigger one.

 

Fortunately Geonnie since were both disabled and nuts in some respect I think can help you there. I can understand wanting to do this that and the other thing but my suggestion is first slow down. Better to spend more time on one thing than rushing headlong into trying many things at once. Don't confuse Sugarfoot.

 

From your posts and our PMs you and I are very similar so I'll always be glad to help. You've been reading a great deal and perhaps it's time to stop for awhile and absorb what you've learned. Put to practice what you have been reading and work with Sugarfoot to get her stable. Remember a good dog is always in a state of balance.

 

So how do you handle a dog in an urban environment. Take her out, twice a day regardless of the weather. (Get your self a military grade or policeman's rain poncho, best weather protection there is when it's wet outside). Get a sheep dog whistle learn to use use it and teach Sugarfoot the 4-ball game. I use with Jin I'll make another post on how to do it. That's his regular active work and 2-3 hours of that keeps him fit and thinking. Sheep? Sure introduce him to sheep, it doesn't have to be a regular thing but... if you teach Sugarfoot to herd you can go to the park and heard geese and ducks by the pond for practice or you can chase seagulls at the beach..

 

IMO the best way you can make this better for both of you is to slow down a bit, step back and look at it from the outside. You have a dog that is brilliant but you still have a child so there is a need to go at a fair pace and take your time.

 

Glad your reading those books, I've read some of them. I would like to suggest another by Patricia McConnell, the "Other end of the leash". It's more on dog psychology and it's a good read. Don't try to overload yourself or Sugarfoot.

 

Hope that helps.

[Sue R]

Sheep? Sure introduce him to sheep, it doesn't have to be a regular thing but... if you teach Sugarfoot to herd you can go to the park and heard geese and ducks by the pond for practice or you can chase seagulls at the beach..

While I agree with a great deal that you said, DR, I have to take exception to one or two things.

 

Sheep? Whether or not it's beneficial to introduce a dog to sheep (or any other stock) if the dog may only have intermittent opportunity to train/work, is a matter of debate. I won't comment on that as there are widely differing opinions.

 

You don't "practice" a stockdog on ducks and geese at the park. While some principles are similar, some are not. Those that do goosework professionally and work dogs on stock can better comment on that. But, IMO, it isn't "right" to take a dog anywhere that it will harass wildlife - including ducks, geese, and gulls. As you are aware, ducks and geese are migratory birds and come under federal jurisdiction. Harassing them (without permit, on private property for property protection, and so on) is most likely illegal.

 

In addition, is it right for anyone to encourage/allow their dog to harass wildlife without a definite purpose? A purpose is being defined as protecting property, property use, or people.

 

You have lots of outdoor experience - I am surprised that you recommended allowing a dog to chase birds of any kind as an activity or exercise. My dogs do very well on the beach in the presence of gulls and other shore-dwelling birds. They don't chase them, aren't allowed to chase them, and have been taught to not chase them. They get plenty of exercise in other ways that don't involve a great deal of exertion on my part.

 

Other than these points, IMO, a very encouraging and good post!

[geonni banner]

Where do I start. Someone hand me a ball peen hammer; no a bigger one.

 

Fortunately Geonnie since were both disabled and nuts in some respect I think can help you there. I can understand wanting to do this that and the other thing but my suggestion is first slow down. Better to spend more time on one thing than rushing headlong into trying many things at once. Don't confuse Sugarfoot.

 

From your posts and our PMs you and I are very similar so I'll always be glad to help. You've been reading a great deal and perhaps it's time to stop for awhile and absorb what you've learned. Put to practice what you have been reading and work with Sugarfoot to get her stable. Remember a good dog is always in a state of balance.

 

So how do you handle a dog in an urban environment. Take her out, twice a day regardless of the weather. (Get your self a military grade or policeman's rain poncho, best weather protection there is when it's wet outside). Get a sheep dog whistle learn to use use it and teach Sugarfoot the 4-ball game. I use with Jin I'll make another post on how to do it. That's his regular active work and 2-3 hours of that keeps him fit and thinking. Sheep? Sure introduce him to sheep, it doesn't have to be a regular thing but... if you teach Sugarfoot to herd you can go to the park and heard geese and ducks by the pond for practice or you can chase seagulls at the beach..

 

IMO the best way you can make this better for both of you is to slow down a bit, step back and look at it from the outside. You have a dog that is brilliant but you still have a child so there is a need to go at a fair pace and take your time.

 

Glad your reading those books, I've read some of them. I would like to suggest another by Patricia McConnell, the "Other end of the leash". It's more on dog psychology and it's a good read. Don't try to overload yourself or Sugarfoot.

 

 

Hope that helps.

 

Ok, let's see. We go out several times a day. Weather is not an issue, unless it's a real frog-strangler. I like walking in the rain, and Sugar doesn't seem to mind it. Her socialization is coming along nicely.

 

I have read "The Other End of the Leash" and found it to be a useful book. Also liked "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson and found much of use there.

 

As for sheep, no sheep for Sugar until she is well-socialized and solid on basic obedience under distraction. I'm just looking ahead, considering my options. Also, as I said, I have the luxury of lots of time (and believe me I know what a gift that is) so I can work with my dog several times a day - short sessions - and she is really blossoming. I won't push her. As you say, she's still a youngster - and one who came with some unfortunate baggage. It's all about building confidence right now.

 

I have to say, I would never allow Sugar to even see the geese at the park before she has a rock-solid recall and down. I wouldn't allow her to chase anything with a heartbeat in any case. First because it's no fun for the "chasee." (Not to mention that there's a huge ticket for harassing the birds in the park - and Sugar could legally be impounded for doing so.) And second, because if I had to get down on her case for trying to herd the park birds it might put her off herding in a more appropriate setting. I'm reading "Stockdog Savvy" now and it has given me a lot to consider about laying groundwork for her eventual introduction to sheep. There is of course the possibility that she will have no talent for herding, but I don't think the groundwork will be wasted time. It's all positive interaction.

 

Don't worry about me overloading Sugarfoot - I'm "in love" - so I enthuse a great deal and dream about possibilities. But I've been a trainer, a vet tech, a groomer and had 12 years "in the trenches" with Collie rescue, so I can pace myself and I think I have a good "read" on what my girl can handle.

 

I am very curious about "4-ball." Tell me more!

[desertranger]

Sorry Sue. The ducks and geeseon the local greensward are local not wild. They are cared for very well.

 

4-ball actually starts with a ball launcher, 1 tennis or chuck-it ball and 1 soccer ball to start with. Do not use a soccer ball smaller than a size 4 as the dogs can catch them and get their mouths stuck open. I also suggest buying a needle valve and removing a little air from the soccer balls to make them easier for te dog to grab and catch. The game is played anywhere you have a lot of room to walk and throw/kick balls around. Start with teaching how to chase and retrieve each ball separately. The object is to fetch the correct ball. As we walk I throw the small ball leaving the large ball behind. Getting out a distance (now up to a couple of hundred yards) I send Jin back for the large ball. As he brings it in I work on his stops, lie downs and stay and recall, leave-it, get the tennis ball. At one point he puts the large ball down I toss the small ball and he chases that one leaving the large ball behind. He'll also carry the large ball in his pursuit of the small one and should drop it when told to do so. Have him bring the large ball for you to kick CAVEAT: Watch out Jin likes to get right in front of me and catch the ball full kick at very close range. You would think he would hurt himself catching it. this is where you practice point to the ball. drawing a line from the dog to the ball and directional control. e.g. When the dog moves from right to left (clockwise) call come-bye, for moves left to right (widdershins or counter clockwise) I use go-way. I'm still having problems teaching him to go-out or straight away from me. Once you have that down you can add more soccer balls which I did last week. I'm now teaching Jin to fetch, go to or move a particular ball from A-B then go to C for a different ball and move it to A and change balls. I can do it with tennis balls at home. Now to move it into the field. So no sheep to herd, play 4-ball. I've had dogs in the past that were pretty good at it. To bad no one ever made a sport out of it.

[geonni banner]

Sorry Sue. The ducks and geeseon the local greensward are local not wild. They are cared for very well.

 

4-ball actually starts with a ball launcher, 1 tennis or chuck-it ball and 1 soccer ball to start with. Do not use a soccer ball smaller than a size 4 as the dogs can catch them and get their mouths stuck open. I also suggest buying a needle valve and removing a little air from the soccer balls to make them easier for te dog to grab and catch. The game is played anywhere you have a lot of room to walk and throw/kick balls around. Start with teaching how to chase and retrieve each ball separately. The object is to fetch the correct ball. As we walk I throw the small ball leaving the large ball behind. Getting out a distance (now up to a couple of hundred yards) I send Jin back for the large ball. As he brings it in I work on his stops, lie downs and stay and recall, leave-it, get the tennis ball. At one point he puts the large ball down I toss the small ball and he chases that one leaving the large ball behind. He'll also carry the large ball in his pursuit of the small one and should drop it when told to do so. Have him bring the large ball for you to kick CAVEAT: Watch out Jin likes to get right in front of me and catch the ball full kick at very close range. You would think he would hurt himself catching it. this is where you practice point to the ball. drawing a line from the dog to the ball and directional control. e.g. When the dog moves from right to left (clockwise) call come-bye, for moves left to right (widdershins or counter clockwise) I use go-way. I'm still having problems teaching him to go-out or straight away from me. Once you have that down you can add more soccer balls which I did last week. I'm now teaching Jin to fetch, go to or move a particular ball from A-B then go to C for a different ball and move it to A and change balls. I can do it with tennis balls at home. Now to move it into the field. So no sheep to herd, play 4-ball. I've had dogs in the past that were pretty good at it. To bad no one ever made a sport out of it.

 

Great game! I can see lot's of possibilities... Sugarfoot knows the difference between "get the ball" and "get the toy." All her toys fall under one of those two categories, except the Frisbee, which word she knows very well. Mentioning it will send her into transports of delight. It's amazing to me how the various collie breeds seem to have big vocabularies. The only other dog I ever had that knew so many words was a Doberman. At the time of her death she had over 200 words, and if she hadn't died suddenly at 7 yrs she would probably have had a lot more. Anybody else notice an affinity for picking up vocabulary in their BCs?

[desertranger]

All of us. It's a subject discussed in other threads. Do a search for vocabulary.

[geonni banner]

All of us. It's a subject discussed in other threads. Do a search for vocabulary.

 

Very interesting. Albert Payson Terhune was right!

[Eileen Stein]

When the dog moves from right to left (clockwise) call come-bye, for moves left to right (widdershins or counter clockwise) I use go-way. I'm still having problems teaching him to go-out or straight away from me. Once you have that down you can add more soccer balls which I did last week. I'm now teaching Jin to fetch, go to or move a particular ball from A-B then go to C for a different ball and move it to A and change balls. I can do it with tennis balls at home. Now to move it into the field. So no sheep to herd, play 4-ball. I've had dogs in the past that were pretty good at it. To bad no one ever made a sport out of it.

 

If you think you might be taking your dog to sheep someday, I would omit these directional commands from the game.

[geonni banner]

If you think you might be taking your dog to sheep someday, I would omit these directional commands from the game.

 

10-4

 

BTW, I sent my membership apps. to USBCHA & USBCC today. Maybe my $40.00 will help with the good fight...

[WildFlower]

Just my $.02....

 

I think the best 2 things that you can do are:

 

1. Vote with your wallet, which you say you are going to do. Give no money to the AKC.

2. Educate people when you talk to them, obviously in a polite manner, when anyone asks you questions about border collies or brings up the AKC. (You get more with honey than you do with vinegar! At least in most cases you do. )

[Eileen Stein]

BTW, I sent my membership apps. to USBCHA & USBCC today. Maybe my $40.00 will help with the good fight...

 

Much appreciated!! The USBCC sponsors these Boards. If you have gotten useful information here, it's likely that others will benefit from them as well. If you agree with the objectives of the USBCC, we welcome the support you give to these Boards and our other educational efforts by joining. There are not a lot of individual bennies for members, but you do have the satisfaction of knowing that you are helping to facilitate our educational efforts on behalf of the traditional border collie, bred for work. And education is our chief weapon.

 

Likewise, as someone who doesn't trial your dog on livestock, you don't receive any direct benefit by joining the USBCHA, but by doing so you are supporting the system whereby future breeding stock is tested for working excellence, and thereby helping to shape the breed toward working quality and away from the extraneous breeding considerations that will, in the long run, dilute its working ability and its essence.

 

Daisy Doodle's suggestions are excellent as well.

[geonni banner]

Much appreciated!! The USBCC sponsors these Boards. If you have gotten useful information here, it's likely that others will benefit from them as well. If you agree with the objectives of the USBCC, we welcome the support you give to these Boards and our other educational efforts by joining. There are not a lot of individual bennies for members, but you do have the satisfaction of knowing that you are helping to facilitate our educational efforts on behalf of the traditional border collie, bred for work. And education is our chief weapon.

 

Likewise, as someone who doesn't trial your dog on livestock, you don't receive any direct benefit by joining the USBCHA, but by doing so you are supporting the system whereby future breeding stock is tested for working excellence, and thereby helping to shape the breed toward working quality and away from the extraneous breeding considerations that will, in the long run, dilute its working ability and its essence.

 

Daisy Doodle's suggestions are excellent as well.

 

We duz what we can... I've already bent my dog-owning friend's ears with the pertinent 411. They are suitably and gratifyingly aghast. Yay for our side!