Chase's Agility Training

[MicheleS.]

I've been training Chase in agility for about 10 months now. The teacher seems to be taking it slow. I kinda like that. Doing lots of targeting, jumping exercises, some low obstacle work, etc.

I have trained and titled my aussie in agility, so I do have some experience. It was such a breeze with her, it seemed so easy.

But now there's Chase the BC. I think I'm finding out that agility isn't as easy as I thought

Chase is motivated by ball/toy so that's his reward. He is familier with the clicker, we use it for targeting and also in his obedience training.

 

My questions:

1) What I'm noticing now is that Chase will skip 2-3 poles at the entry, or pop out halfway through. Looks like he "cheating" so he can get his reward faster. Maybe he's too excited? Am I not requiring enough of him before rewarding? (he never gets his toy/ball if he's wrong, we try again until he nails it) Is focus too much on reward and not the actual obstacle?

 

2) Am I really noticing that he is sensitive to my position in relation to him, a jump or obstacle? For example, if I'm standing too close to a jump it seems like it pushes him away from it...? Or is he making up his own mind and positioning himself for what will come next? (Hope that makes sense.)

 

3) He is ridiculously fast. He's 35 lbs. of lightening streak! (Geesh, I know I'm older and slower since I ran my aussie but I didn't think I was that bad.)

How in the heck can I get where I need to be to tell him where to go? I can give verbal commands but he's not fully trained and is not reliable about those yet. My gosh, am I thinking too slow for him too? He thinks he knows where to go be he doesn't and he usually ends up making his own decisions, which BTW, are usually wrong at this point.

 

4) Will all of thise come together for us with practice, experience and time? I don't remember it being so hard. ha

 

Chase is a very sensitive and shy type of dog who has made tremendous progress for the better. It's been very rewarding to see him start to become the dog I know he can be. Not perfect yet but I'm seeing signs that he might be able to hold himself together enough to compete in agility. I also think he could be one heck of an agility dog if I ever get my act together. He seems to really enjoy agility, gets excited for class. He seems very biddable, always willing to come back and try again and doesn't have problems with repetition.

 

Any feedback/ideas/reassurance is welcome. Help!

Michele & Chase

[MrRipley]

Hi Michele, I too am training my first BC in agility, after having trained and titled my black lab mix and my sheltie/bc mix. We've been working together for about 5 months now, and it IS a lot different! Although she lacked pure drive and speed, Anna was very methodical, workmanlike and extremely forgiving of my handling mistakes. Sadie is more of a sheltie than a BC (not that there's anything wrong with that) and is also more forgiving. I am finding that with Ripley, he is much more sensitive and my handling needs to be much more precise. My shoulder positioning is very important with him. Whew!

 

I don't know how you trained the weaves, but I used the 2x2 method and I am very happy with it (I used to train with channels). Rip has pretty reliable weaves after only about 5 months of training. He sometimes will skip the second pole when we are doing them in sequence and he has some speed -- I think it's just a matter of experience and self control. They really need to slow down to get around that second pole.

 

I'm not sure why but it was also difficult for Ripley to work close to me. Lots of jumping into heel position has helped that. And recalls to heel. Are you working on stuff like that? Chase needs to be able to work at various distances from you as well as very close to you.

 

I'm not sure I can give you much more specific advice, but I think it will come together for you! When you start running courses with him, you will plan your positioning and be able to get where you need to be. I see lots of great handlers running very fast border collies although they are not very fast themselves. Being fast yourself makes it easier -- but not a necessity. I see people with bad knees or are just older and not in the very best shape, who know how to get the job done. I think you might need to train your brain to think faster though

[MicheleS.]

MrRipley -

thanks for your reply. I know the questions were pretty vague and therefere hard to answer w/o knowing me or Chase. But I think you have given me some good ideas and pretty much reassured me that I'm on the right path. Chase was taught the 2x2 method for the weaves and I was very pleased with the quick and reliable result. I added a ball for speed.... maybe using it too much. Today we practiced without the ball and he was more focused on the weaving and not *cheating* to get his ball. I need to inter-change his reward now I guess. I didn't even think about how the dog has to slow down to hit the 2nd pole and good for me to be aware of that. It makes alot of sense and gives me a good idea as to why he's skipping the entry. He's running towards the weaves at full speed!

Chase does obedience also and does many recalls to front and directly to heel. Doesn't seem like he has a problem with that in obedience. It's very interesting how it seems I have to be aware of my positioning. I will add more jump to heel position in my training.

And you are right, I do need to learn to think a bit faster on my feet with this guy

My aussie was also very forgiving of my handling mistakes and I guess I sure wasn't as good as I thought. She made me look so good. Chase makes me look like I've never ever trained a dog before

I will persevere with my training and be patient. Good luck with your own training.

Thanks again -

Michele & Chase

[Pat W.]

1) What I'm noticing now is that Chase will skip 2-3 poles at the entry, or pop out halfway through. Looks like he "cheating" so he can get his reward faster. Maybe he's too excited? Am I not requiring enough of him before rewarding? (he never gets his toy/ball if he's wrong, we try again until he nails it) Is focus too much on reward and not the actual obstacle?

 

Try putting that reward at the end of the weaves so he is focused on that instead of what you are doing, you also might want to put wires on the entrance just to help he get it right, put a set where he normally pops out. You can order them from Cleanrun.com online they're fairly cheap. I trained with channels and when we were ready for a completely closed this is what I did and we have fantastic weaves for a green pup. You also might want someone to watch what YOU are doing while he's in the weaves, are you turning your body at all in anticipation of the next obsticle?...Sensitive dogs can be a bear but having that power steering later can be nice

 

2) Am I really noticing that he is sensitive to my position in relation to him, a jump or obstacle? For example, if I'm standing too close to a jump it seems like it pushes him away from it...? Or is he making up his own mind and positioning himself for what will come next? (Hope that makes sense.)

 

Some dogs have a larger "personal space" I too am training a young balistic border collie after my aussie, but this youngster is my 3rd dog. Whim prefers that I work off him and stay at least 3 ft off the jump or he too will push off an obstical. Look at working lateral distance and see if things improve, if that does not help then try putting a jump at right angle to a fence or wall so your pup cannot go around it, stand where you normally stand and send to that treasured toy over the jump, gradually add movement and then move the jump off the barrier a couple of feet and repeat

 

3) He is ridiculously fast. He's 35 lbs. of lightening streak! (Geesh, I know I'm older and slower since I ran my aussie but I didn't think I was that bad.) How in the heck can I get where I need to be to tell him where to go? I can give verbal commands but he's not fully trained and is not reliable about those yet. My gosh, am I thinking too slow for him too? He thinks he knows where to go be he doesn't and he usually ends up making his own decisions, which BTW, are usually wrong at this point.

 

Whim too is scarey fast, work on forward sends a "Go" or "Go On" Command is a wonderful thing when you reach maximum velocity well before your dog does LOL, Also Lateral sends are nice, as well as a lot of Lateral work that allows you to get where you need to be for your partner. Not only do I have short stumpy legs, weight more than I should but I just found out that I have Osteo Arthritis in my right Knee so trust me I take every advantage I can.

 

4) Will all of thise come together for us with practice, experience and time? I don't remember it being so hard. ha

 

Exactly, time and experience will fix most problems. I went from a steady run with you type of Border Collie, to a nutty aussie who didnt feel I really needed to be on course with him to my current guy Whim who has amazing drive and really loves this sport as much as I do, and really really wants to please me. Its a big transition from an easy(ier) dog to one like your Chase or my Whim, but boy when you click its a real rush

[MicheleS.]

Pat W -

WOW, more great ideas! My head's going to explode. I'm very excited to try the things you suggested. I did go and train today but I think I'll have an opportunity to try more tomorrow.

Great idea with the wires on the weaves. I'm pretty sure I can borrow them from someone. I'm thinking my body position is good because I thought I was aware of that when he's weaving but I need to check myself.

I love the idea of putting the jump near and fence/wall, can't wait to practice the lateral sends and the GO GO! Whew, my work is cut out for me.

I really can see that if and when this all comes together, it's going to be extremely rewarding and fun. At this point, it's probably me being impatient because I do see where it can lead if I ever get my act together.

 

I am very close to SE Pennsylvania... Chester County, Newark DE. In fact, I'm pretty much within walking distance of PA and DE. I train at Flexible Flyers.

I love your dog's name, Whim. Very cute

 

Thanks so much for the training ideas.

Michele & Chase

[Root Beer]

My questions:

1) What I'm noticing now is that Chase will skip 2-3 poles at the entry, or pop out halfway through. Looks like he "cheating" so he can get his reward faster. Maybe he's too excited? Am I not requiring enough of him before rewarding? (he never gets his toy/ball if he's wrong, we try again until he nails it) Is focus too much on reward and not the actual obstacle?

 

Since he's 2 X 2 trained, you can go back and work with 2 poles for entries. You can do the around the clock thing and build up some distance with just two poles.

 

For popping poles, you can "open" the poles (if you are using a set of 2 X 2's) where he is popping out and slowly close them back up as he gets the idea.

 

If the focus is too much on the reward, can you do some training with food for a while? If I train weaves with Dean with a toy, he can't focus enough to weave yet. Eventually he will, but he's not there yet. But if I use food, he's beautiful.

 

2) Am I really noticing that he is sensitive to my position in relation to him, a jump or obstacle? For example, if I'm standing too close to a jump it seems like it pushes him away from it...? Or is he making up his own mind and positioning himself for what will come next? (Hope that makes sense.)

 

With a dog like this, I would do two things. First, start working farther away from the jumps and find the place where my body position doesn't push him away from it. Second, I would do some work with just one jump working close/far away, doing sends, etc. to teach him what it means when I am closer to the jump.

 

I'd focus a lot more on learning where I need to be than on teaching the dog to work with me "in" his space, but I'd do a little of that.

 

 

3) He is ridiculously fast. He's 35 lbs. of lightening streak! (Geesh, I know I'm older and slower since I ran my aussie but I didn't think I was that bad.)

How in the heck can I get where I need to be to tell him where to go? I can give verbal commands but he's not fully trained and is not reliable about those yet. My gosh, am I thinking too slow for him too? He thinks he knows where to go be he doesn't and he usually ends up making his own decisions, which BTW, are usually wrong at this point.

 

I have this same scenario with Dean when he's in a relaxed frame of mind. (To add to my challenge with me, he runs with a velcro style when he's anxious and flat out FAST when he's not - I don't always know which Dean I have before stepping on a course!)

 

I did a lot of work with him on single obstacles, with a lot of focus on send - come back to me - send - come back to me. I worried at one point that this would make him too handler focused, but it didn't. It made him handler focused enough to read some of my body language even when he's ahead.

 

Based on what you say, though, it sounds like the more work that you do, the more you will come together as a team and I think that will make a lot of difference. I definitely haven't mastered the fast dog skills yet, but the more work I do with Dean, the more I just somehow know how to get him around a course when he's ahead. I've also learned some tricks for putting myself in better places (laterally, cutting off parts of the course while he's in a tunnel, etc) but that's coming with time.

[MicheleS.]

Thanks, Root Beer, more great information!

My logical self did tell me that I should go back to the 2x2's and work on entry. I will also do that. Sometimes it stinks to back-step in your training but it's necessary sometimes. And in the last couple of days I did decide to go back and use food as a reward and that seemed to get me more focus from Chase. Sorry, puppalicious, but you can't have the ball all the time, we are working a little bit

It also seems logical to me that I spend some time learning where Chase's comfort zone is in relation to me when he's running. It's almost like he's telling me, 'hey mom, don't need you there but need you here' (where ever here is, but he's not saying right now so I guess I have to figure it out myself)

 

Chase is a sensitive one in many aspects. Bless his little heart, I adore him! I am pretty sure it's going to take him awhile to get used to the show experience. And I probably will have many times where I too won't be able to guess which dog I have with me from one show to the next. Again, very different from my aussie who could have a bomb go off in the next ring and she'd still remain focused on her mommy.

 

Thanks for all the ideas and reassurance. I really needed that right about now.

Michele & Chase

[Root Beer]

Thanks, Root Beer, more great information!

My logical self did tell me that I should go back to the 2x2's and work on entry. I will also do that. Sometimes it stinks to back-step in your training but it's necessary sometimes. And in the last couple of days I did decide to go back and use food as a reward and that seemed to get me more focus from Chase. Sorry, puppalicious, but you can't have the ball all the time, we are working a little bit

 

One thing you can do, since Chase loves the ball, is use it to teach him to think when he's getting excited.

 

I did an interesting exercise with Dean a while back. I put a toy on the ground and sent him over a jump. He couldn't do it unless the ball was set up so it was Dean-Jump-Ball. If the ball was offset, he would run around the jump to go straight to it.

 

He wasn't cheating or anything. He didn't know his job well enough to understand that he was supposed to jump and then go to the ball. The way the picture looked to him originally, he was running straight to the ball and the jump happened to be in between, so he took it. Once the jump wasn't there any more, he was still running straight to the ball. The jump just didn't happen to be in between him and it!!

 

So, I broke things down to show him that what I really wanted was for him to take the jump and then run to the ball. I did this by offsetting the ball gradually. We are actually working through this same process right now with his frisbee, which excites him even more.

 

I don't even try to use a toy with him to train weaves yet because I know it breaks up his focus too much. But one goal that I have is to work him through a training process to teach him - weave first, then grab the toy (no matter where it is). That would be a fun fall training project.

 

My point is that you don't have to abandon training with the ball completely. I also use food when I'm working on a complex skill (weaves, contacts, etc) where I need him to think, but once he has the basic skill down, I like to use the ball to deepen his understanding of the job.

 

Just some food for thought. These kinds of exercises can be a lot of fun.

 

It also seems logical to me that I spend some time learning where Chase's comfort zone is in relation to me when he's running. It's almost like he's telling me, 'hey mom, don't need you there but need you here' (where ever here is, but he's not saying right now so I guess I have to figure it out myself)

 

Sorry to keep using Dean as an example, but there are a lot of similarities. He is also my second dog Agility and he runs a lot different from the dog I'm used to!! And he seems to be a lot like Chase in some ways.

 

One thing I've found helpful for this is to work very small sequences to feel out where I need to be. For instance, we have worked with pinwheels of jumps. With Maddie (my first dog), I have to "drive" her through a pinwheel with my momentum and body position. I have to run right next to each jump to keep her going through it. When I set up a pinwheel with Dean in the yard, I found that if I even stepped inside the pinwheel, I would push him out around some of the jumps!! I had to handle it from a place that seemed rather strange! But once I got the feel for where I needed to be, I found that I could "feel" that in full courses, too.

 

Pinwheels are good to work with for this, but I'm sure there are a lot of other common configurations you could work with as well.

 

Chase is a sensitive one in many aspects. Bless his little heart, I adore him! I am pretty sure it's going to take him awhile to get used to the show experience. And I probably will have many times where I too won't be able to guess which dog I have with me from one show to the next. Again, very different from my aussie who could have a bomb go off in the next ring and she'd still remain focused on her mommy.

 

Time and trial experience will make a huge difference. One of the biggest things really is getting to know each other as a team. In some ways I think this is harder with a "second" dog - especially one who is more sensitive than the first was.

 

You can get there, though!!

[MicheleS.]

Hi Root Beer - Kristine,

did you happen to get the PM I sent to you? It looks like it went fine but it's not showing up in my sent folder

Michele & Chase

[Root Beer]

Yes, I did!! I'll reply soon!! I've been pretty tied up so far this weekend! But I did get it!!

[in2adventure]

I haven't read all the posts completely, so I could be repeating something. To help with the jumps, try Susan Garrett's "Success with One Jump" and Greg Derret's "Great Dog, Shame About the Handler". They are both awesome videos to get you and the dog to understand what is expected on the course.

 

Grady is soooo much like your pup and I've had a hard time transitioning from a dog that will do anything for me (and just over all knows what is expected) to a speed demon dog that needs very good direction and handling skills. I've spent most of the time training on my own with videos and magazines and he's doing quite well, but I was having a hard time getting him to understand the obsticals when they were in a sequence. I drove 3 hours for a private lesson to learn I hadn't named anything, I was only directing him and he didn't understand what I was doing.

 

He had learned to run really fast and only do the obstical I set him up in front of. We are now doing a TON of box work with jumps, discriminations and short sequence distance work with commands for each obstical. Even if the jump is OBVIOUSLY the next thing to do, I tell him "Over!". This has reinforced what is expected. He used to run by everything "looking" for what was supposed to be next. Now he knows to listen for the next command and look for the body language that goes with the command. The verbal cues will eventually be fased out, but right now are very needed for direction.

 

I would recommend going back to these short sequences for awhile and not doing full courses until he has a better understanding of what he's doing. It sounds like he just doesn't know what's expected of him yet.

[MicheleS.]

in2adventure -

thanks for the suggestion on the video's! I will definitely check into them.

 

Your information also made me see, as did the others, that I do need to break things down for Chase into smaller sequences. We aren't really doing any full courses yet in our classes and I don't practice full courses either. Maybe we've been doing 5-6 obstacles in a row in class sometimes. I have gotten to the point of naming the obstacles now too because I think Chase is doing them reliably enough for me to put a name on them. We still aren't at full height on the a-frame or dog walk, which is fine because we've been concentrating on learning targeting, targeting, targeting and then driving down to the target. Just recently going over the frame and dog-walk.

I really do think I need to do smaller sequences and start concentrating on making sure Chase understands he has to take the obstacle that I'm asking by my voice command and body language. He's very inconsistent at this.

 

It's also been hard with Chase's speed, because I did have a dog that was pretty intuitive. All the dogs in my class are slower than Chase and it seems like it's so much easier for their handlers. That makes me feel sometimes that I have an out of control dog. ha In a way too, even though I do like my instructor, I'm thinking I need to find an instructor who runs fast dogs like Chase. My instructor is a wealth of knowledge but I know (I know her just from being around for years in dog sports) her dogs were never quite as fast as Chase so I'm thinking she might not fully understand the fast dog issues. Not quite sure about that yet.

 

But thanks for your response. It helps so much!

Good luck with Grady.

Michele & Chase

[in2adventure]

in2adventure -

thanks for the suggestion on the video's! I will definitely check into them.

 

Your information also made me see, as did the others, that I do need to break things down for Chase into smaller sequences. We aren't really doing any full courses yet in our classes and I don't practice full courses either. Maybe we've been doing 5-6 obstacles in a row in class sometimes. I have gotten to the point of naming the obstacles now too because I think Chase is doing them reliably enough for me to put a name on them. We still aren't at full height on the a-frame or dog walk, which is fine because we've been concentrating on learning targeting, targeting, targeting and then driving down to the target. Just recently going over the frame and dog-walk.

I really do think I need to do smaller sequences and start concentrating on making sure Chase understands he has to take the obstacle that I'm asking by my voice command and body language. He's very inconsistent at this.

 

It's also been hard with Chase's speed, because I did have a dog that was pretty intuitive. All the dogs in my class are slower than Chase and it seems like it's so much easier for their handlers. That makes me feel sometimes that I have an out of control dog. ha In a way too, even though I do like my instructor, I'm thinking I need to find an instructor who runs fast dogs like Chase. My instructor is a wealth of knowledge but I know (I know her just from being around for years in dog sports) her dogs were never quite as fast as Chase so I'm thinking she might not fully understand the fast dog issues. Not quite sure about that yet.

 

But thanks for your response. It helps so much!

Good luck with Grady.

Michele & Chase

 

 

 

You may be right about the trainer. Many trainers are wonderfull for certain dogs and not so wonderfull for others. My puppy trainer was awesome, but just that, a puppy trainer. She really didn't know what to do with Grady either. The private trainer I chose last month has a dog exactly like Grady, only a bit older. She competes in the same curcuit as me and I LOVE watching her run a dog. She has 2 BC's and a BC/Aussie cross. All are wicked fast and super well trained. All I kept thinking when watching her young dog run was "I need her to work with my dogs". It was totally worth the 3 hour drive and the cost. I can't wait to have another lesson with her.

 

When teaching obstical names ONLY do that obstical. Don't do a sequence of them unless they are all the same thing. If he is really that fast, he may not be understanding the difference between tunnell and walk it and over (jump) when they are done in a row. Try doing several jumps and always giving him the command or the dogwalk 4 or 5 times in a row and giving the command. This will help with the understanding of it.

 

Also, start paying attention to commitment points with Chase. Do obsticals one at a time and see where he commits to it...the point where he won't come off it until it's finished. Jumps are the best for this. When he commits, this is when you need to give your next command. This has been hard for me, but i think I'm finally getting it. Lucia commits a full stride before the jump, Grady commits as his front feet leave the ground. The Greg Derret video talks alot about this. The "box work" training with jumps does wonders to teach a dog body language and direction and to teach you the commitment points for each dog. It won't take long for Chase to figure this out. 4 jumps at your house and 4-5 minutes a day does wonderfull things.

 

Don't use too much or too harsh correction either. I'm finding with Grady when I tell him he's wrong he slows down to try and fix it. If I just call him back and do whatever again without correction and only rewarding what is right, he is so much faster to understand. There has been a few occation where he'll do the same thing over and over without fixing it and then we just do something else for a round or two and go back to what we were working on.

 

It sounds like he's coming along great. Don't forget males mature a bit slower than females and it could take him a bit longer to catch on. Keep us up on his progress

[MicheleS.]

Thanks so much for all of this great information. I need to write it in a training notebook

 

Chase really is that fast and I find your information about the commitment points very interesting. As I sit here and think about it, I do believe that Chase is the same as Grady in that his commitment point is much later than my reliable aussie's was. I do have to get my hands on the Greg Derret video.

 

Don't worry, Chase never gets corrected We do the same as you do with Grady, we just try again. The funny thing is, he's very sensitive in many ways and I would have thought that he would be a dog to shut down, but he doesn't. He kind of stands there but always comes back for another try in a very upbeat way. I swear his wheels start turning when he stands there. I don't over-do it, I will move on to something else when I think he needs a mental break.

 

I will be thinking more about switching instructors......

 

Chase is very immature. He is going on 18 months and he's very immature in many way. He still looks like a puppy too and I hope he stays that way

 

I will keep you posted and hope that you will do the same. Thanks again.

Michele & Chase

[in2adventure]

Thanks so much for all of this great information. I need to write it in a training notebook

 

Chase really is that fast and I find your information about the commitment points very interesting. As I sit here and think about it, I do believe that Chase is the same as Grady in that his commitment point is much later than my reliable aussie's was. I do have to get my hands on the Greg Derret video.

 

Don't worry, Chase never gets corrected We do the same as you do with Grady, we just try again. The funny thing is, he's very sensitive in many ways and I would have thought that he would be a dog to shut down, but he doesn't. He kind of stands there but always comes back for another try in a very upbeat way. I swear his wheels start turning when he stands there. I don't over-do it, I will move on to something else when I think he needs a mental break.

 

I will be thinking more about switching instructors......

 

Chase is very immature. He is going on 18 months and he's very immature in many way. He still looks like a puppy too and I hope he stays that way

I will keep you posted and hope that you will do the same. Thanks again.

Michele & Chase

 

 

Chase and Grady are the same age Grady will be 18 months next Thur. He is also very immature in many ways, but is growing mentally every day. He always surprises me when things click. Just when I think UGH! he gets it. And is always proud of himself because he knows he's got it. The most important thing I've found so far is when to say when. I think I get a bit frustrated with his learning curve sometimes.

 

He seems a bit slower than when we first started. I'm hoping this is an illusion because he runs MUCH smoother than in the beggining He is in his first trial on Sat and Sun. Only a couple of runs each day to see how he does. Not sure if he can handle the stress yet, but I want to see where we are and what needs to be worked on.

 

These boards are such a wealth of info. I learn sooo much from reading other people's stuff

[MicheleS.]

I agree!! A wealth of information here. I've learned so much.

 

Sending good vibes to you and Grady for this weekend

Let us know how it goes!

 

Michele & Chase