Freeman 101 Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 We attended our first USDAA trial today and had a ball. Freeman placed first in Jumpers. We NQ'd in Standard because I somehow left out a piece of the course, but from Freeman's perspective we had a clean run! We ran performance because our AKC measurements are 21.25 which would have put us at the 26 inch jump height. However, when Freeman was measured today he measured at 20 inches. I could have actually signed up for Championship. If I understand the rules correctly we'll have to be measured 2 more times before that 20 inches is our permanent jump height. Is this correct? So would it be best if we continued running Performance until we get all 3 measurements? AND, if we title in PI and then I decide to do Championship do we have to go back to starters, or can we move on to advanced? I've tried reading through the rules but I'm still not clear on this. ------------------ AKC courses vs USDAA courses. I thought today's courses were a little more challenging than AKC's, maybe not as tight as some AKC courses but there seemed to be much sharper angles and also a lot of traps for a beginners course. For instance there would be a tunnel opening directly in front of a jump, however the next obstacle would not be the tunnel but be a jump at a 90-degree angle. Oh, also for a beginners course I found the need to layer obsticals twice. Is what I'm describing typical USDAA courses? ---------------- Lastly, I noticed that the dominant breed at this trial were Border collies. Does this seem to be true in most areas? I wonder if it is because of the stricter SCT requirements or the jump heights? All in all, we had a blast and I'm now a huge fan of USDAA. The next time around I'm going to also try Gamblers and maybe even Snookers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieDog Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 I'm a huge fan of USDAA myself and am waaay happier to give them my money than AKC. Because he's within 1" of a jump height cut off he'll need to be measured 3 times and at least once must be after he's 3yo. Z's in the same boat, she measures between 15.5 and 15.75 at just over 2yo, so she'll need to wait until at least one measuring after 3yo before I can send in her temp card for a permanent one. I'm not sure about the Performance thing, but I'm not sure they'd allow a dog to title in both Performance and Championship - perhaps it would be worth a call or email to their office; I've had great success emailing them: prompt replies, helpful, etc. Z and I run in Championship despite how close she is to the cut off and have never had an issue. I've not competed in AKC, but everyone I've talked to who has does say that USDAA tends to be more difficult in terms of technical aspects and of course the faster SCTs, but they do also say the courses in general are more spread out. I'm surprised you had traps and layering in a Starters run. It's not impossible to have, but if there are traps usually they've been pretty benign ime (i.e. look bad on paper but in reality aren't as stark, lots of extra maneuvering room, etc. I've never seen layering on a Starters Standard course myself. And yes, BCs far outnumber any other breed in the applicable height class. My primary competition dog is a mix, as is my up and coming boy - there used to be a lot more mixes (and other breeds too) when I started 8 years ago, but the BCs, Shelties, and Jacks have taken over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agilityrunningdogs Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 MaggieDog has a great answer for the jump height question, so I'll answer a few others. If you title in P1, and then move to Championship, you have to start all over again in Starters. This is partly because they don't want a bar-knocking dog to get to P3 and suddenly be in Masters when it shouldn't be. You can go to Championship to Performance however (something I've done), but not the other way around. I would continue to run in Performance. All three of my dogs jump (in my opinion) a ridiculous height in USDAA, so they all run Performance and they are none the worse for it. The two Schnauzers, 14" and 13.25" jump 16" and my 17" Border would have jumped 22"; plus there are fewer dogs so more placements for us AKC courses tend to be more technical, the handling is usually about control. Whereas USDAA courses are more open and flow-y and speed is key, as shown from the SCT. This is not always true, just what I've discovered and talked about with other handlers. Border Collies are the predominant breed in agility everywhere, AKC, USDAA, NADAC, CPE etc. I think the only place they don't show up is Teacup Dog Agility Association lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted June 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 AKC courses tend to be more technical, the handling is usually about control. Whereas USDAA courses are more open and flow-y and speed is key, as shown from the SCT. This is not always true, just what I've discovered and talked about with other handlers. Border Collies are the predominant breed in agility everywhere, AKC, USDAA, NADAC, CPE etc. I think the only place they don't show up is Teacup Dog Agility Association lol. ================ I've seen a larger variety of breeds in AKC around here. As you mentioned, it's more about control, and the slower dogs are able to manage the courses. I've seen dogs in Excellent practically walking the courses, and there was none of this in yesterday's usdaa trial. Back to yesterdays USDAA trial: The handling skills that I seen in the Masters runners were phenominal. For instance I seen a woman stand 10 feet behind the tunnel. Keep in mind that she was not facing the openings. Anyway, she sent the dog ahead of her and directed the dog into the correct tunnel opening. I'm assuming the dog knew to take the opening closest to the go out, but still it was impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted June 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 I'm surprised you had traps and layering in a Starters run. It's not impossible to have, but if there are traps usually they've been pretty benign ime (i.e. look bad on paper but in reality aren't as stark, lots of extra maneuvering room, etc. I've never seen layering on a Starters Standard course myself. ============================----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The traps were avoidable as long as the handlers were good at pre-cueing (sp?) their turns. If not, dog after dog was sucked into the tunnel. Here was an example of layering. A tunnel shooted out at a 90-degree angle from underneath the dog walk. The dw was next to the gate ring. the handler could run along the gate ring to avoid layering, but it was not the quickest path. I've worked a lot on sending and holding on contacts from a distance so this was not problem for us, but I thought that it could be a safety issue for green dogs if the handler had attempted the quickest path. I'm thinking that advanced and masters is going to be wickedly hard!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieDog Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 One thing that has really helped Ziva and I is training at a level far above what we compete at - I handled her on a USDAA Grand Prix qualifier course (Masters level) and had NO issues to speak of because we train at that level, even if we're still in Starters for our titling work. I think with Kes we're def going to wait until we're training at an Advanced level before trialing at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat W. Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 In the last 13 years Ive run AKC, NADAC, and USDAA. USDAA is my first love, the courses IMHO offer just the right amount of technical challenges as well as a chance for a dog to run. As for there being layering and traps in a starters course I agree with Erin that the course should not be blatently trappy, as for layering it is not normally put in a Starters course but a handler may decide to do it if they feel their dog can handle it. As for running Performance you can title in both Championship and Performance separately. You are able to move laterally from PI to Starters but any "Legs" or titles accquired in either cannot be transfered to the other. So if you have 2 Standard legs in Performance you cant take them with you if you move to championship, and visa versa. Even if you have your PD1 title should you move to Championship then you would start with a clean slate and need to meet all the requirements in Starters before moving to Advanced. You do need three measurements one must be a CMJ (Certified Measuring Judge) and you will need a measurement after his 3rd birthday. Just an observation that 1.25 inches is a large descrepancy in height measurement, dont be suprised if you boy measures higher the next time. Just remember that you always have the possibility of measureing up a height but never will measure down a height at a given trial, until you get your permanent card. As to continuing to run in Performance vs. Championship that is entirely up to you. In performance there are no spread jumps, the A frame is lower and you have an additional second or two in time. Performance has come a long way since I ran in it about four years ago, its become far more competitive and there are alot of nice young dogs running in it. Plus everything offered at the championship level is now offered at the performance level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 I've only done one USDAA trial so far. I'm hoping to do some more when next year's trial season rolls around. I didn't find that the courses were necessarily technically more challenging, but since we had to start at the beginning (Starters), it threw us both off a bit. The Starters courses have a lot of real estate between obstacles. That is tough for my dog who likes to be constantly engaged and making split second decisions. The long distances between obstacles were confusing to him. Interestingly, we didn't do very well in any of the starters classes we entered, and we entered them all. But, we did very well in the two tournament classes (Grand Prix and Steeplechase) where we were competing against the best dogs. I think it was because the courses were closer to what he is used to running. He damn near won the Steeplechase. He spun in front of the weave poles - a very difficult entry - but had the fastest time otherwise. In the Grand Prix, he missed making the championship round by about 0.2 of a second. It was fun anyway, though. I also agree that there are far more border collies at USDAA than at AKC trials. Border collies are the predominant breed at AKC trials, too, but at the USDAA trial that I went to, it was tough to find a dog that *wasn't* a border collie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 Back to yesterdays USDAA trial: The handling skills that I seen in the Masters runners were phenominal. For instance I seen a woman stand 10 feet behind the tunnel. Keep in mind that she was not facing the openings. Anyway, she sent the dog ahead of her and directed the dog into the correct tunnel opening. I'm assuming the dog knew to take the opening closest to the go out, but still it was impressive. That reminded me about the USDAA trial that I went to a few months ago. There was a guy there, in Masters, who was running a border collie. The guy had MS (I think that's what I was told). Anyway, he used a walker and moved very slowly. During the walk through, he'd slowly move around the course making his plan. When it was his turn to run, he'd put his dog in a stay and slowly make his way out to some pre-chosen place on the course. Then, while staying in that one spot, he would direct his dog through the entire course. It was truly amazing. His dog didn't always go where he was trying to send it, but I know that I watched at least one run where they ran clean. Talk about handling skills! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted June 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 That reminded me about the USDAA trial that I went to a few months ago. There was a guy there, in Masters, who was running a border collie. The guy had MS (I think that's what I was told). Anyway, he used a walker and moved very slowly. During the walk through, he'd slowly move around the course making his plan. When it was his turn to run, he'd put his dog in a stay and slowly make his way out to some pre-chosen place on the course. Then, while staying in that one spot, he would direct his dog through the entire course. It was truly amazing. His dog didn't always go where he was trying to send it, but I know that I watched at least one run where they ran clean. Talk about handling skills! --------------------------- This type of example is truly inspiring to me. I didn't mention that the woman handling the Border collie was large and not able to move very fast, but her ability to handle this very fast Border collie was amazing. Her handling skills were top notch. This dog's ability to respond to her on the drop of the dime was unreal. FYI: I'm not knocking large handlers since I also fit in this category! I've seen several challenged handlers who come up with their own handling system, handle fast dogs, and totaly set the course on fire! I'm an overweight, middle-aged, fibro-myalgic chic trying to run a crazy-fast dog, so I feel hopeful when I see these examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRipley Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 Yay for USDAA! It is my favorite venue. I'd keep entering Performance until you get your permanent height card, but if you want to "try" to get Freeman measured into the 22" height class, I have a few tips. My Sadie's official measurement is exactly 16" (enabling her to jump champ 16"), but she actually had one measurement that was over 16". So i had to get TWO CMJ (certified measuring judge) measurements to cancel it out. I trimmed the fur between her paw pads and also thinned out the fur on her withers. I borrowed a measuring wicket from someone and we practiced getting measured at home so she would be relaxed with the wicket. When dogs are tense and nervous they can "gain" at least an inch in height! Also, some measuring judges are nice and allow you to massage the dog's ears a bit or whatever makes them relax a bit before measuring. Either way, there's nothing wrong with running Performance 22" if you don't want to jump 26". Some trials around here the Masters 22" height class will have 30-50 border collies in it! The Performance classes are becoming more and more competitive too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 Some trials around here the Masters 22" height class will have 30-50 border collies in it! That's why I'm glad I have a tall border collie! The 22-inch classes are two to three times the size of the 26-inch class. I don't mind jumping my dog at 26 inches, though, because he measures just over 24 inches at the withers anyway. So, it's not a big deal for him. Though there are still plenty of border collies in his class, he's probably one of the tallest (thus, fastest), so he almost always places, if we manage to Q. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRipley Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 That's why I'm glad I have a tall border collie! The 22-inch classes are two to three times the size of the 26-inch class. I don't mind jumping my dog at 26 inches, though, because he measures just over 24 inches at the withers anyway. So, it's not a big deal for him. Though there are still plenty of border collies in his class, he's probably one of the tallest (thus, fastest), so he almost always places, if we manage to Q. Rip's definitely just around 19" so he'll measure easily into the 22-inch class. Not looking forward to having to accumulate Super Q's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted June 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Here are the proofs from the jumpers course. He looks so demon possessed! http://kevin.zenfolio.com/p114781900/h3c0fc63#h3c0fc63 see shots 180-291 Funny how I'm only in the start-line shot, but then I disappear after that! You can always tell where I am in relation to his head direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 We ran performance because our AKC measurements are 21.25 which would have put us at the 26 inch jump height. However, when Freeman was measured today he measured at 20 inches. I could have actually signed up for Championship. An 1.5 inch difference in measurements is a huge difference - some judges don't care how the dog is standing when they measure them or what the handler is doing with the dog while they are trying to get the dog to stand for measurement, but if both judges are doing their job correctly there certainly should not be that much difference in a measurement. When I measure dogs that are close to the cut off measurement I am very anal about stacking them correctly before I do a measurement even if if takes me a lot of time. I don't want dogs stretching up and forward on their front feet for a treat because that adds height, I don't want them stacked with their front legs forward of their shoulders because that makes them shorter, and how their head is set can make the 1/8" difference as well. Some dogs will care a pound or two or too much weigh over their withers and that can be the difference between 21" and 21.25". A dog should be able to hold a nice relaxed free stack (stand-stay) without a lot of handling and bribing, so those imporant close all measuremens are as easy to make as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted June 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 An 1.5 inch difference in measurements is a huge difference - some judges don't care how the dog is standing when they measure them or what the handler is doing with the dog while they are trying to get the dog to stand for measurement, but if both judges are doing their job correctly there certainly should not be that much difference in a measurement. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The original measurements that I gave were incorrect. His AKC measurement is 21.25 and the 1 USDAA measurement is 20.34 (instead of 20). The last measurement was not taken with a lot of care, so unfortunately I suspect the resulting measurements will result in us having to jump 26" or run Performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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