Herding instinct, lack of, and how timidity affects it.

[BorderlineCollieaholic]

My puppy, Bandit, is 8 1/2 months old. The only time he has any eye is when he looks at my cat, and thats just suspision(Raven likes sneak up on the dogs and swipe at them when they aren't looking) and I have never, ever seen him do a Border Collie crouch. If he didn't look like one and I didn't know his parents, I wouldn't even think he was a Border Collie. If one of my chickens runs from him he'll chase it, but when he catches up with it he just slaps it with his front paws and chews on their feathers(although now that I explained very thoroughly that that is NOT how you treat chickens, he's left 'em alone). He is scared to death of my goats and if he comes into their pen with me he spends the entire time hiding behind my legs. If he's on the other side of the fence and goat comes up to sniff at him he'll LUNGE, teeth bared, at the goat, then scramble backwards as fast as he can go. Never had a bad experience with a goat. He just suddenly decided one day that they're fire breathing dragons that like to eat Border Collies. Also, despite my efforts for socialization when he was a young puppy, he is extremely scared/nervous around people. If I take him out somewhere, such as Petsmart, he hides behind my legs the entire time. If someone comes over to our house, he hides behind my legs barking. I have the feeling if he was pushed he would easily slip into fear biting. He is more timid now than he was as a 12 week old puppy. When I take him out places, people actually ask me if he's been abused He is not very playful, either. He doesn't chase balls or frisbies. If he is in a VERY playful mood he'll chase sticks or rubber whip handles.

 

Is he just not destined to be a herding dog? I'm somewhat discouraged, I really needed a dog to help me with my goats. But if he just lacks the initiative and talent, I'll go in another direction with him(probably agility or rally).

 

How can I help him get through he terror of people? I know he'll never be an extremely confident dog, but I'd like him to at least lose his deathly terror of anyone outside our family.

[juliepoudrier]

First off, if you've never trained a dog to work yourself, then I think you should start with a good trainer. There are some in Florida, and some members of this forum take lessons with them. Just starting Bandit on appropriate sheep could make a huge difference in his confidence level. Goats can be very intimidating, especially if they're not dog broke. Letting the goats continue to frighten him is not doing him any good. I'd leave him out when you go in the goat pen, for now. Also, he's a bit young at 8.5 months. While some dogs will start in training that young, not all will, and many people prefer to wait till they're around a year old. Any bad experiences he has with stock as a youngster will likely have to be overcome when he is finally started in training, so best to err on the side of caution, IMO. If you can get him a good start on sheep and build his confidence, then you can put him on goats later. Even better if you can find someone who also has dog-broke goats, you can transition to them from sheep before putting him on your non-broke goats (I'm assuming they haven't been worked by dogs before). At first you'll probably have to help him with the goats because they don't flock as well as sheep and are more inclined to test or challenge a dog, but with the basics already on him and with you backing him up, he should eventually be able to manage the work you need done. If you can't get outside help, then you'll have to start out slowly and do a lot of the work yourself to help him until he gains confidence, but I really wouldn't recommend that unless it's the absolutely only option.

 

Others on this forum can give you desensitization exercises/advice WRT his fear of people. For now, I wouldn't take him places that frighten him so much. It would be better to start small, in a more secure environment, like having people come to your place to meet him. That way he's on "safe ground," giving him one less thing to worry about. Forcing him to interact in environments like PetsMart, which are clearly over his fear threshold is just reinforcing his fear.

 

J.

[BorderlineCollieaholic]

Thanks for the advice I haven't asked him to herd the goats yet, I've just let him tag along when I go to feed, see if anyones close to kidding, etc. About a fourth of my goats are semi-dog trained. I had a Catahoula X at one time, and she at least taught them that when the dog says stay still, you stay still. Other than that, no they aren't dog-broke at all. I am trying to find an instructor, but I'm in college and have really low funds so its taking a while to find one that will work.

 

I have another question, which might be completely stupid but I'll ask anyway. So far as animals to practice on at home, if I got a small flock of ducks, would they be better to start with than goats?

[stockdogranch]

Everything Julie says is great advice. The other thing to consider is: what is this pup's breeding? Depending on his breeding, he may or may not have much inclination to work stock. There are, unfortunately, lots of things out there that look like a Border Collie and are called a Border Collie, but have been bred so far away from working instinct that it may just not be there. But if he comes from proven working parents, then I would say he's probably just going through a phase that is making him timid of pretty much everything, stock included. And yes, goats can be very intimidating to a youngster who has not had an introduction to stock using puppy/beginner appropriate stock. A good instructor can help you sort all of that stuff out using appropriate sheep, and if it's "in there," can help bring it out in the pup,

A

[DeltaBluez Tess]

If you don't have the funds, ask the trainer if you can trade farm labor for lessons. I have had students who trade labor for lessons.

[BorderlineCollieaholic]

Hhmm, thats a good idea, exchanging work for lessons. I'll ask a few of the trainers close enough.

 

Bandit's parents were both working dogs-His mom wasn't registered(Smooth coat b/w), but his dad was...not with the AKC though(Rough coat r/w)both were cattle dogs. Although I never saw him work(The stud/dad doesn't belong to the bitches owner) Bandit's breeder told me his dad was exceptional. Although I knew even less than I know now when I went to pick up Bandit, I did see his mom work a small group of cows-she LOOKED really good. And moved the cattle where she was supposed to. So as far as I know Bandit does have the genes in him.

[Lenajo]

ok....look at it this way...

 

you adopted a human baby NASCAR genes. Both parents are super drivers - tough, fearless, competitive.

 

You take that baby and put him in the pit at a NASCAR track. Right up there with the action. He's going to cry, scream, be terrified! He's going to fear the fast cars, the loud noise! You wonder what's wrong with your super-NASCAR bred baby and keep bringing him along. He clings to you, doesn't want to go but is afraid to be left behind.

 

Sometimes you put the baby behind the wheel. He jerks the wheel crazily and stomps the pedals with both feet. You wonder what is wrong with him and why he doesn't handle the car right..... maybe he should just be directed to boat racing? or maybe decathalon? marathons?

 

Do that enough, and your NASCAR baby is going to hate the site of a car period. And he sure isn't going to be a good driver, much less want to be your partner in anything new.

 

This is what happens when you take baby stockdogs to assertive adult livestock that they have no ability to handle.

 

Your puppy is a *baby*. He needs to be taken about an introduced to gentle, friendly dog people who make it fun for him to be around them. He needs basic manners and basic social skills. He needs to learn to ride in the car to pleasent places, and to walk on a leash. Now is the time to introduce him to puppy oriented skills class like agility - even if that isn't going to be his life work. It's about confidence!

 

No more stock right now, even though a fence or behind you legs, and later (as in months from now) you can introduce him to quiet, dog oriented stock that he can handle. He will make mistakes, remember he's a baby, but they will be much less traumatic because the stock are quiet and appropriate for him.

 

As for the chickens - good grief! It's a rare young pup that suddenly finds herding the feather coated soccer balls as a discipline and not a free for all. And those pups often have too much eye! Again, either teach that pup to leave them alone (if you never want them worked) or keep him away from them until he's old enough to have some self control.

[Journey]

PM me and I will give the name of 2 people in N Fl to work with, any others I cannot and will not recommed. Great advise so far, just don't forget that right now he could be going through a fear period. He's about the right age.

[BorderlineCollieaholic]

It will be hard to completely keep Bandit away from the stock, as they are located on my property. But I will leave him outside the pen from now on. He does know his basic puppy manners, loose leash walking, basic obedience commands, polite behavior, etc. He just gets to stressed/excited to listen to me around new people. I did teach Bandit to leave the chickens alone, and I wasn't complaining when I posted that he occasionally would chase them. I do realize he is a puppy and will make mistakes, my post was more centered around whether a puppy of his age should or should not be showing herding instincts and if his current timidity could affect this. I don't have the money for the agility classes around here at the moment(Closest one is $225) but when my friends come over I do introduce them to Bandit. I've pretty much stopped taking him about places because I am worried he could be driven to fear aggression if someone wasn't very, very careful. And I'm sure other people have had experiences with "dog lovers" who love dogs so much they can't help but try and pet them no matter what the owner says.

[Sue R]

Some pups will show amazing potential at a very young age and others won't "turn on" until much later (a year or later in life).

 

Just because you have stock on your property doesn't mean you can't avoid your pup interacting with them. When my pup can't be with me, he can be crated in the house, out of sight of animals and activities that I might feel are too much for him at his age.

 

Don't leave him outside a pen that has stock. He can develop bad habits. He's best off out of sight entirely until he is old enough to be exposed to the animals.

 

I would not allow a pup to interact with chickens - chasing them is stressful and not fair to them.

 

Best wishes!