Hardest Thing.

[MaggieDog]

I don't think anyone is really insinuating that Jenn hasn't done her best and hasn't worked hard at changing this behavior.

 

I think what at least some of us are saying is this, if Jenn can't deal with the management required when one owns an aggressive dog with a bite history, it's very unlikely that a good 'farm' home will be found - heck even farms have visitors and how many farmers want to have to deal with a dog that 'came out of the box' with an odd worldveiw? If Tad is naturally different in this way, why would living on a farm change anything? Training dogs is a big part of my life and I love working through problem behaviors, but even I would not knowingly adopt a dog with a bite history.

 

I understand that this is a unique situation and that in one respect I am lucky that Maggie is the way she is due primarily to her circumstances, but I still say it is irresponsible to rehome a dog with Tad's history.

 

Whether or not a behaviorist is consulted, and I think one should be if at all feasible, or if the vet runs comprehensive tests is besides the point if he can't be managed safely, even by the person who raised him.

 

Yea Jenn's position sucks, but the decisions still need to be based on the best interests of ALL involved, including the public, Jenn, Tad, etc.

 

I don't envy the choices you're thinking about Jenn, and I really hate to be so negative, but I wrestled with similar issues on a lighter scale when I first adopted Maggie and I got many of the same comments/suggestions/responses as you have.

 

If it were me, Tad would be muzzled WHENEVER he is outside, even in a yard, to prevent any accidents - you would not believe how much relief knowing your dog won't hurt anyone/anything can be and I'm sure that lack of stress should help Tad as well.

[KJ]

I posted a similar post a year+ ago about Shep (rescued from a neighbor at 2yo), after he bit a child and I took him to a "behaviourist" (he had other bites as well, no blood, purple marks until the child). Her dx was basically to put him to sleep and that he might see a child as prey and attack. The whole thing was surreal and didn't feel right and that's when I posted. Turns out this "behaviourist" was an idiot and she was SO SO SO WRONG.

 

The responses to my post were similarto yours-saying it'd be best to put him down, biting dogs can't be rehomed, they are a liability, at least I tried, etc. Everyone that responded was seriously trying to help and I will be forever grateful. Where it becomes confusing is that they are all correct IMO.

 

The advice I chose to follow was Melanie's and we took Shep to Dr Overall. THE BEST $350 I'll ever spend. Shep's dx was mild dominance aggression. We were given a stack behaviour modifications, PROTOCOLS and he is on Prozac (7 cents a pill). She gave LIFE back to Shep and me, she continues to help. We still work on the protocols as much as we can. With the Prozac we noticed his reactivity level and anxiety WAS reduced, but it does require the behaviour mod as well.

 

Melanie is who I've held up as my success story and offers me hope. Among the many 'truths' she said:

 

There are very few options for troubled dogs. The mythical farm home or home in the country or home that wants a protective dog really doesn't exist for most of these dogs.

I suppose you have to try and maybe you'll get lucky. I tried everything to get RID of Shep b/c he wasn't fitting in with my lifestyle...casual walks on the boardwalk, playing with neighbor children (and one day our own maybe), I work a lot, my mom is ill etc. He landed me in a shrinks office, he made me cry, he made me angry and so nervous I'd shake. AFTER seeing Karen Overall, I made the choice to ACCEPT Shep for what people had done to him (or perhaps it's genetic?) and manage him and as Karen said, "protect him".

 

"what it really boils down to is what you can do and still be able to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning."

This is the core of why Shep is still alive. He doesn't deserve to die, period.

 

This is not to discourage at all but here'show it's gone for me. Choosing to rehab Shep has been difficult-hard on my marriage, hard on my soul b/c it is a reflection of who I am and what I am capable of...has nothing to DO WITH SHEP! I can't boast the successes that Melanie has had or many others. Although HE HAS HAD MANY successes, we have a long way to go. I believe being sucessful requires a certain talent and perhaps other factors like organization and time. I am mid-stream with Shep. We are both learning. I still don't know his future 100%--- but what I do know is we are trying and I have to take it day by day. YES, he'd be better off if he had a Melanie, or a MaggieDog or whoever...but he's got us.

 

Tad is so young. From ALL I've read, all the boards I've been on, the people I've talked to and the success Shep has had so far with me as his leader....there's hope for Tad. Please don't give up on him yet. See Karen and take it from there.

Kim

[SoloRiver]

Jen,

 

I don't have the time to answer at length right now, but I wanted to address a couple of things.

 

You are greatly overestimating the cost of a behaviorist. You will see her once, maybe one more time a year or more later (if you choose) and follow-up visits are at a greatly discounted price. There is a big difference between $350 and "thousands" of dollars. I know money is an issue, I am on a very limited income myself (academia doesn't pay well) and don't spend money lightly. In my opinion the life of a dog is worth a $350 expenditure. As I said, you can at least try.

 

Solo is on medications. There are a number of people on these Boards who have met Solo and can testify that there is nothing drugged or sedated about him. If properly prescribed (i.e., if they actually address a problem the dog has and the dosage is correct) the effect that they have is to make the dog more "normal," not less normal. If a dog needs medication, he has a medical condition. To me it is no different from giving thyroid meds to a dog with thyroid deficiencies, or insulin to a diabetic. Psychiatric medications can be abused, or inappropriately prescribed, yes -- but that doesn't mean they don't work for dogs (or people for that matter) who need them. As in humans, many anxiety issues are related to faulty brain chemistry. Medications can help fix this. To a casual observer, Solo is totally unremarkable. He is just another Border Collie. No one, and I repeat, no one, would guess he is on meds just by looking at him and most people are surprised when I tell them he is.

 

 

Maggie said:

 

All that said, my original post still stands - if someone has a dog that poses an active danger to others and they are not willing/able to keep the dog and others safe, often euthanasia is the most humane choice.

 

And I agree with her, and I added the bold for a reason. You have a choice here. YOU are the variable in this situation. You can try to work with this dog, or you can give up. If you try, you may not succeed, but I think your chances are very, very good. You have done a lot already, but you still have options open to you and if you are honestly looking for a way to keep this dog, then I would try them.

 

When I first got Solo I wanted to give up on him too. I wasn't looking for a way to keep him. I was trying to find someone else who would take him. I couldn't face the idea of killing him (not that I was so attached to him already, but the idea disgusted me) but you know what, I would have if enough people had told me to. Lucky for both of us, we found extremely qualified help right away -- my graduate advisor is married to Karen Overall. If she hadn't looked at me, told me I could do this, and given me the tools to do it, Solo would be dead. And oh, what I would have missed out on. I would not even know what I had missed out on.

 

Tad will teach you more than any other dog could. You will have a bond unlike that with any other dog. He is young. He has a very good chance of getting better. Trust me, I FULLY understand the difficulty of this situation, but you do have choices here. I hope you and Tad pursue them. Most people would have given up on Tad right away -- you haven't. That speaks well for you and for your chances. Tad is lucky to have found you and I hope it works out for both of you.

[Joe Anne]

Laurie, I don't think anyone is accusing Jenn of not trying and putting her heart into Tad's issues.

That being said... as a professional trainer, from what I am hearing, in NO way, is Tad ready to "give up on". As well intentioned as any of us (including pro trainers), are, we sometimes add to the dog's issues without realizing it. Yes he has a loving home, a good breeder, and a person who cares. That dosen't mean he won't have personality/behavior problems different from his littermates or in spite of his positive start in life.

I sincerely agree with Malanie. At the absolute very least (if Tad is to remain with his current family), a Behaviorist the quality of Karen Overall is not an unreasonable option to check out. She is NOT, going to just drug the dog. Jenn what you described about other people that you know who have taken their dogs to a "behaviorist", is EXACTLY, what my warning to you said!!! Anyone, a n y o n e, can call themselves a behaviorist, there is NO regulation. That being said, Dr. Karen is VERY, well known, reasonably priced, and you even have the benefit of a personal recommendation on these boards.

When I contacted her about Phoenix (which sounds alot like your Tad, cept he has never actually bitten, 'yet'), she said he sounded like he was going through behavior that is common with his age (then 16 mos.), and he sounded very much like some "appropriate", training/advice would be in line. As it is, I have really accelerated his training around strangers in the last month and I have already seen an improvement. Granted I am a professional trainer, and a bit more in tune with this type of behavior, but he is still , my dog, and I am still his Mom and a human being, and sometimes that gets in the way. Since I am seeing some improvement, I am working with him myself and a fellow trainer I have worked with in the past. Phoenix does not know my former co-worker/trainer,and he is a bit of an intimidating man to a dog who is stranger aggressive. We spent several hours, with Phoenix and my friend trainer, and Phoenix's first re-action was, very aggressive, barking, lunging, hair up on his back, teeth showing etc. By the end of a couple of hours my friend was sitting on the floor and Phoenix was on his lap giving doggy kisses! I was truly amazed, and for the first time, I felt this was something we can work on for a positive outcome. We are not there yet, but, we are making progress.

We are actually going to a herding clinic this weekend, where there will be lots of strangers and dogs, so we shall see. I did talk to the trainer ahead of time, and explained Phoenix's attitude and behavior problems, and she said she would be willing to work with him, and feels that once he sees the sheep, he (hopefully) and probably will forget all about the "strange people and dogs". This is a VERY, big step for both of us. She said to just tell people he is not a friendly dog, and no you cannot pat him, and she will help me to keep an eye on him for potential problems.

I can't say that I am not nervous, but, we are gonna give it a go.

If Kieth can help you find a good home, good, but PLEASE, do at the very least call Dr. Karen Overall, and talk to her, she is THE, real thing!!!

Have a little faith, it sometimes goes a looong way! No one is saying this will be easy, but a lifelong loyal friend the quality of Tad , your dog, is not something that comes along often.

Cherish him and you will do THE right thing.

[Root Beer]

I also wanted to make a comment about medication.

 

While it's not a cure-all in and of itself, not all medications will make a dog (or person) sleepy or "drugged".

 

If something isn't right with the chemical functions in Tad's brain (I'm not saying that is the case, but it is a very real possiblity), it is possible that there is a medication that can help to normalize his brain function to the point where behavior modification can work.

 

Now, whether such a protocol would be effective, and do-able for you cost-wise would remain to be seen.

 

But you might do well to be open to the possiblity of using medication for Tad if a reputable, qualified person recommends it.

[Joe Anne]

Melanie, You put feelings and facts into words that are eloquent and best of all make sense!

Oh my God, I sunk right into those Solo eyes in your photo, you are soooooooo right, what an incredible loss to the world and you it would have been to accelerate his crossing the rainbow bridge!!

WOW!

I can give him a big cyber hug!!!! maybe not in person, but hey, that's ok! I love him anyway!!!

[painted_ponies]

You may be able to find a home for Tad, but of course you will need to check them out very carefully (as I'm sure you will) to make sure they don't just want him for a "junkyard dog" to scare people away.

 

My favorite dog I ever had was very much as you describe Tad. I adored that dog, and still keep his picture on my dresser.

 

Pud, my dog, was a chow who really was "born bad." He came from a responsible breeder and was socialized carefully from the time he left his mother. But he was never, ever, in the thirteen years I had him, trustworthy. He didn't discriminate - he pretty much hated all mammals, be they human, canine or feline. And, being a chow, there really wasn't much way to muzzle him effectively.

 

You're right, you can't be 100% sure of being able to keep others safe from him - I had my share of accidents with Pud, even though I watched him like a hawk constantly.

 

Pud's owner, by the time he was 8 months old, was ready to have him PTS. And I took him, after two weeks of persuading his owner I wouldn't let him rip my throat out in the middle of the night. So it's not impossible to find a home for a dog with aggression problems.

 

But I'd advise you to check your state's laws about dog-bite liability and see if you'd still be responsible in the event he bites his new owners or someone else after arriving in his new home. Most state bar associations have an "ask a lawyer" free helpline. Just google your state bar association and the telephone number should be on their homepage.

 

But if you can't find a home for him, well, then, as you say, you're a minor and have other people to consider. You could be exposing your parents to a great deal of liability with this dog.

 

With all due respect to the posters above, not all dogs are fix-able, and there are many perfectly nice loving dogs PTS every day simply for lack of a home. So I for one wouldn't fault you for deciding to euthanize.

[Keith Ramsay]

As a dumb question, how much/hard are you working him?

 

I know angel is a lot better when she is tired. I usually leave her loose 95% of the time, but had to tether her yesterday for footy practice because there were some 'unguided' kids riding motorbikes on the adjacent field. She regressed a bit and went right into motorcycle herding mode. As an aside, it was kind of funny... but still she could have knocked one of them off or worse yet, gotten run over.

 

I believe had she been anything less than well rested, she would have decided to leave it alone, but with fully charged battteries, she was on it like stink.

 

Jen - I am close and would love to see Tad if you are keen with it. Again... I'll try and help you find an appropriate home too (if it comes to that).

[painted_ponies]

I just checked the website for the Va. bar association. This may be their equivalent of SC's "ask a lawyer" service - it'd be worth a call to find out, anyway.

 

24-hour Legal Aid Helpline - 866-LEGL-AID

[KJ]

With all due respect to the posters above, not all dogs are fix-able, and there are many perfectly nice loving dogs PTS every day simply for lack of a home. So I for one wouldn't fault you for deciding to euthanize.

I do not think all dogs are fixable or more accurately, that there are enough people able or willing to give it a go. There is a place for euthanasia and I can't draw lines around it....

[PSmitty]

Very nice offer, Keith! I hope Jen can take you up on it.

 

I can't add anything else that hasn't already been said, but I wanted to thank Melanie for her posts. Very well said and thought provoking.

[Jenalyn]

Thanks Keith, I sent you a PM.

 

I had that thought too, that maybe he was just reacting to strangers so strongly because he had tons of energy bottled up. But, looking back, he's reacted the same way when he's fresh and full of energy in the morning and right after we've played frisbee/ball or trained.

 

And, I'm pretty sure I'd still be liable if Tad bit a new owner : Or, more accurately, my parents would be. I've talked to them and we're all willing to take that risk if it means we can find Tad a great home and not have to face euthanization.

 

Looks like I had the wrong view on medication for dogs, especially when properly and responsibly prescribed.

 

Solo sure is a gorgeous boy!

[SoloRiver]

Tad is rather young and he's going to be high-energy no matter what. It is true that he'll mellow as he gets older and be easier to manage. I noticed a difference in both of my Border Collies in this respect after the age of four (granted, Fly is still a spaz, but luckily she's my normal dog!).

 

Jen, there is another good behaviorist in the area that is closer than Karen if you are interested -- her name is Kathy Meyer -- she is not board-certified but she is a DVM and comes highly recommended. If you are interested I will send you her contact info.

 

We're all liable if our dogs hurt someone. That includes random events that even normal dogs can get caught up in, like if there's a dogfight and someone sticks her hand in the middle and gets zapped. Don't be me wrong, liability is an issue but it's one we take on whenever we decide to have dogs, period.

 

By the way, Laurie, I don't actually think there is a big difference between Solo and Tad. I think that much of what's weird about Solo was born, not made, and that he would be strange regardless of how he was raised. I think I could have made a bigger difference had I gotten him as a puppy, but I don't think he would have been entirely normal. Hopefully the project that I'm working on will help answer some of these questions. There are dogs out there who go through what Solo went through, and worse, and still come out the other side OK. Obviously there is some inherent substrate that the environment interacts with in order to produce the personality and behavior of the dog.

 

Again, I'm speaking for myself and not my project in the responses to this thread. I've gotten emotional, and I apologize. It isn't terribly professional. But this is a topic that goes straight to my heart.

[Kyrasmom]

Jenny,

 

How do your parents feel about keeping Tad? I had not realized you were a minor and wonder what kind of support is in place in trying to keep him.

 

While not impossible, placing him where he will thrive, would be pretty close to miraculous. Placing him with someone who "thinks they can help" will more than likely open him up to multiple placements and who knows what else.

 

And while I understand all that you have been doing, the question is what more are you (and your parents) willing to do. Walking a dog on a muzzle is not the end of the world and believe it or not, may take some of the pressure off of both of you, resulting MAYBE in a better response from Tad.

 

When I expect the worst, my dog does his best to provide it, and when I don't know what to expect, he gets confused and still provides it, based on my mixed signals.

 

I've learned to relax A LOT while keeping everyone safe and I see a difference. But it's not an overnight thing, nor is it something that will ever go away...though I must say any baby step warms my heart.

 

So, I look forward to hearing the test results but most of all, you and your family need to be decide what you're willing/open to do. It's amazing what we learn to adjust to, if it's what we really want.

 

Maria