Eye dogs, range ewes and fights

[workindogs]

I tried to hijack another thread awhile back but failed to distract people from the subject at hand

 

I have a young dog that I'd like to move to Open....Lana and I have discussed him at length and compared him in some ways to Lana's Kell. He's not clappy but has quite a bit of eye, smooth, pacy and stylish. He is a thing of beauty on commercial farm flocks, but he likes to peek around the shoulder of the fine wools and pick fights....and they hate him for it. Sometimes I'll catch him weaving at the lift...I suspect his actually trying to catch their eye. He backed his sheep around the Nursery course at Sturgis....and I have a feeling that many more "backings" are in his future. Pretty cool headed about it and he seems to have enough bottom, but I don't think sheep are meant to travel the course backwards. He's only been trialing since Scio last year (and not many trials) so I'm certain he will improve with experience. This dog is certainly different for me as I've been used to a free moving dog....tho' he does remind me somewhat of my old Open dog Black in some respects, being a line dog and "scary" to sheep.

 

I have watched the problem unfold and it usually involves holding some sort of hard pressure, dog comes in to hold it, comes a little too far to the head, pushes in...or weaves at the left (shoulder peeking).......then doesn't get back out where he should be and keeps catching eye. Not good. I think that one of the answers is to teach him to move back out to a correct distance after coming in to give the ewes a push. Sometimes, I think he has "confidence crises" when sheep pressure is hard...able to move them but more apt to catch eye and not let go.

 

How would you handle/train an eye dog that has a tendency to pick fights with range ewes? This doesn't happen on commercial farm flocks or hair sheep...just the fine wools, especially range ewes. BTW I keep fine wools at home...but they're dogged and don't create the same problem.

[RMSBORDERCOLLIES]

I tried to hijack another thread awhile back but failed to distract people from the subject at hand

 

I have a young dog that I'd like to move to Open....Lana and I have discussed him at length and compared him in some ways to Lana's Kell. He's not clappy but has quite a bit of eye, smooth, pacy and stylish. He is a thing of beauty on commercial farm flocks, but he likes to peek around the shoulder of the fine wools and pick fights....and they hate him for it. Sometimes I'll catch him weaving at the lift...I suspect his actually trying to catch their eye. He backed his sheep around the Nursery course at Sturgis....and I have a feeling that many more "backings" are in his future. Pretty cool headed about it and he seems to have enough bottom, but I don't think sheep are meant to travel the course backwards. He's only been trialing since Scio last year (and not many trials) so I'm certain he will improve with experience. This dog is certainly different for me as I've been used to a free moving dog....tho' he does remind me somewhat of my old Open dog Black in some respects, being a line dog and "scary" to sheep.

 

I have watched the problem unfold and it usually involves holding some sort of hard pressure, dog comes in to hold it, comes a little too far to the head, pushes in...or weaves at the left (shoulder peeking).......then doesn't get back out where he should be and keeps catching eye. Not good. I think that one of the answers is to teach him to move back out to a correct distance after coming in to give the ewes a push. Sometimes, I think he has "confidence crises" when sheep pressure is hard...able to move them but more apt to catch eye and not let go.

 

How would you handle/train an eye dog that has a tendency to pick fights with range ewes? This doesn't happen on commercial farm flocks or hair sheep...just the fine wools, especially range ewes. BTW I keep fine wools at home...but they're dogged and don't create the same problem.

Hi Elizabeth. As you probably know, I have a similar problem with my Pat dog and also Pete. I don't feel that this is JUST caused by eye but is mostly caused by the dog's attitude to undogged light sheep and possibly not wanting them to get out of control. By stopping them with his position (coming up onto the shoulder of the lead sheep where they can see him which usually stops them) he is in control all the time. However he's not doing you much good as the sheep are not moving. My take on this and I have found it to work when I can make it work, is to get a good hold on the dog and stop him in a position which allows the sheep to move but still stay somewhat under control. We talked about this earlier in another post about sticky dogs I believe. To me this is about a dog's need to be in control and over riding what his handler is asking for. It doesn't take too much work dealing with it but the dog must be shown that he must do as he's told when he's told and you need to help him be in the right place with the sheep. He will learn this over time and it won't take too long as long as you show him where to be and where you want him to be. Your Rye dog does not offer this problem to you because of his nature. He's nice with his sheep and not a control freak but is plenty determined and strong enough to get the job done. Range sheep like him and he doesn't upset them. However with a control dog their nature is to scare sheep. That's why they do so well on the heavy wool breeds who don't spook at the slightest movement of a dog. Same on cattle. They know they have to move and they do because the dog makes them move but they don't freak out at the slightest movement. You will need to get the handler finesse on this new dog by teaching him that he must obey every command and you must have the timing to keep him in the right place. If you do this ritually you will have a dog that can move anything but he must listen to you. These control freaks usually have to be made to be good listeners but once you have it they are awesome dogs to run. I know that if I let off on my training and let my dogs get rusty I am going to pay for it 'cause they will forget how to listen and I will be back in the old fight mode again. I train for this on the fence driving or fetching sheep and practise keeping them straight but in motion all the time. I have suffolk, cheviot crosses to work with and they are a bit broke but not easy sheep. I also work on young lambs when I have them 'cause they're about as close to range ewes as you can get and they don't break anywhere near as fast. It helps me as mush as the dog to find the right position for the dog and, when I have done my homework well, it has always worked for me. That's my take on it for what it's worth. Hope it helps somewhat......Bob

[abcollie]

How would you handle/train an eye dog that has a tendency to pick fights with range ewes? This doesn't happen on commercial farm flocks or hair sheep...just the fine wools, especially range ewes. BTW I keep fine wools at home...but they're dogged and don't create the same problem.

 

 

Hey there :~)

 

Try a couple of things ...

 

This one is for you ... handling ( for practice not at the trial :~) ... try making him hold the shoulder of the 2nd sheep instead of the lead ewe ... (but don't let the lead ewe get away) ... this allows you to try and control his movement on a certain sheep. Hopefully this will make you more aware of where his "eye" is and what he's doing with it. He will hopefully "eye up less" if there is still one in front moving.

 

Another thing you can do ... but ... this is for the dog:

 

One is once he's "hit" the eye of the sheep ... make him flank all the way around (say ... he's on his come bye side and "eyed up" ... make him do a CALM, CLEAN flank all the way around on his away side back to "where he was". When I first start doing this exercise ... I let them bring them back to me - as I think this helps them RELAX knowing if they "let go of pressure" ... they will get to bring them to you. After they are doing a correct flank ALL the way .. I might stop them 1/2 way and then go back to driving. You will be off line but keep the "new line" UNTIL he hits "eye pressure" again. Then repeat ... ALOT :~)

 

Without seeing the dog it's hard to say if this will work as I don't know his "nature". You need a "hard driving" dog to grind on them ... so watch his attitude.

 

Hope this made sense ... hard with "just words" and you wouldn't want to see me try and draw :~)

[Amelia]

he seems to have enough bottom

 

Hi Elizabeth. Sorry, but I have to ask; what is bottom? I see this word used a lot, but I don't know what it means in a working border collie. I can make some guesses, but I'd rather understand.

 

Also, just curious, how is the dog you're referring to bred?

 

Thank you

[workindogs]

Bob

Thanks for sharing your experience on this....yes, I think he is a control freak. He's fine on heavy or light sheep (farm flock or hair), but range fine wools catch eye and I think Jed actually enjoys the fight.

I saw his sire for the first time at the 04 Finals in Sturgis, way out on the shoulder, head turned in, marching the ranch ewes in perfect control and pace down the fetch....there was silence in the stands during that fetch. I see some of this quality in Jed, but maybe he steps too far forward and needs work getting out proper distance.

[workindogs]

Candy,

 

I like the sound of your exercises. He is NOT a big sulker, but he can get sensitive on me....usually doesn't hold onto it too long, and I can sometimes snap him out of his pity party by doing a few sheds (he LOVES shedding). I wouldn't call him a dog that you can grind on....but he can take reasonable pressure.

 

These past several months I've brought him way back close at hand in order to make sure he listens, flanks when asked (and cleanly) and doesn't fall back into the "Jed-zone". Based on your flanking around exercises, I probably have some more work to do....getting the obedience and precision on the flank. He can fall into slicing...usually if he gets in too close.

 

I will try your flank around exercises and see if I can get better precision on having him hold the 2nd sheep.

 

I heard a rumor that you might be headed for a visit north in May...maybe you'll get to see the Jed-man yourself. I had had entered Open...but with these issues still unresolved I moved him back to PN.

[workindogs]

Amelia

 

Bottom.....he's plenty willing to march his sheep backwards around a course (good thing because his seem to turn around more than they should), did so at a pretty confident clip at Sturgis last fall...nose to nose, without gripping...he quite cool headed but has a powerful head grip when needed. This weekend he ran in Open cattle in the field at Lana's trial, despite very little experience on cattle, he retrieved a run away single headed for pens, faced and moved the group under a hard draw to holding pens (w/o gripping), heeled one that thought to put its head down get heavy and graze and nailed one on the nose that tried to go over him at a chute. The dog has considerable guts.

 

He is Western Canadian bred....well known AB and SK lines. The line is known for power...and known for being stronger eyed.

[Shoofly]

It's a frustrating problem, isn't it? And one of the paradoxes i find so irritating sometimes. You get a really strong dog and have trouble moving around a course because the sheep aren't willing to "turn tail" on that dog and just march around comfortably. Then the next dog up, being a little "lighter" puts no threat into the sheep so they feel nice and safe and march right around.

 

My old Ben dog had the same problem. It was something about the combination of eye and threat that seemed to cause the problem with him though. I have Ben's daughter Jet and she has every bit as much power as him but she's more willing to give stubborn stock a little "poke" to get things moving. Ben's version of a poke was much more violent because of his eye holding him back and building up tension.

 

Good question.

[abcollie]

Candy,

 

I heard a rumor that you might be headed for a visit north in May...maybe you'll get to see the Jed-man yourself. I had had entered Open...but with these issues still unresolved I moved him back to PN.

 

Yep, planning a "short jog" up your way :~) Sure, I would love to see him. I'm running one in PN so will be there on Monday (and Jan is doing her FIRST PN with Tory ... so I will HAVE to be there to cheer her on :~).

 

Have you tried keeping him further back off (I'm sure you have ... just a thought). If he has the "walk up" then you can keep him out of "eye's way" by keeping him backed off and then use your fast walk up to keep them going. However, if he has the kind of eye that takes him a LONG time to move up on them - then that won't work :~)

 

Robin's comment made me think of all the discussions I've had through the years about the difference between power and courage. I have some dogs that had more courage than they "should have" but had trouble moving sheep. So, is that a lack of power ... or an abundance of courage ... and WHAT is power??? Interesting to talk about ... but the "end game" is moving sheep so we try and "mold" what we have.

 

Hey, Carol ... you got me "started" ... where are you :~)

[Lana]

I also think eye dogs need exposure to range ewes to over come their discomfort. Also working range ewes in a large group does wonders for them. Kell never does well on range ewes at Heppner where the course is small, and the draw to exhaust is so strong. He is fine on range ewes if there is a large outrun where he can put the sheep at ease that thou they don't like his eye they must move, and he wont eat them. I did need to really work on not letting him come up into their eye and stop them/pick a fight. I did need to get after him quite hard, but he has no sulk. He needed to be more worried about me than his discomfort about his eye.

 

Courage is at the ability to work despite fear, power may or may not involve courage. Of course power and courage are best, but i love a plucky dog who will try no matter what over a dog with courage who does not want to be my partner. I have 2 young dogs now who have me thinking on of this

 

Candy, see you in my country in May!

 

Lana

[Shoofly]

I really find puzzling out power, courage, presence, eye, all those hard to define things, really interesting. Candy's right, it does come down to moving sheep in the end. But it sure is interesting how it all works. Makes me think the real holy grail in this is the dog with gobs of power that can still somehow make sheep feel safe and comfortable enough to turn their butts to him.

 

There's something there that the animals are feeling between themselves too. I could walk into a field with Ben and the doggiest sheep would pick their heads up to see who was coming. Even guard dogs felt him - i don't know how many times i'd be told to not worry about the guard dogs, they're used to BCs, etc, etc, and next thing you know the guard dog is bearing down on Ben. No one wanted to trust him.

 

One of these days i want to spend enough time on range sheep to learn about them too.

[RMSBORDERCOLLIES]

I really find puzzling out power, courage, presence, eye, all those hard to define things, really interesting. Candy's right, it does come down to moving sheep in the end. But it sure is interesting how it all works. Makes me think the real holy grail in this is the dog with gobs of power that can still somehow make sheep feel safe and comfortable enough to turn their butts to him.

 

There's something there that the animals are feeling between themselves too. I could walk into a field with Ben and the doggiest sheep would pick their heads up to see who was coming. Even guard dogs felt him - i don't know how many times i'd be told to not worry about the guard dogs, they're used to BCs, etc, etc, and next thing you know the guard dog is bearing down on Ben. No one wanted to trust him.

 

One of these days i want to spend enough time on range sheep to learn about them too.

Power, power, power. I hate the word. When I first started trialling that is pretty well the word that stuck to me like glue. I had to have a "powerful dog`. I ran on cattle for my first three years running stockdogs and that seemed to be what everyone wanted. Things have changed a lot since then and the old hard headed hard to train types are few and far between now. Mind you once you had hold of them they could pretty well get anything done on cattle or heavy sheep but they were impossible on light or tricky sheep. Scared hell out of them. My favourite word today is presence, which in my opinion means courage, confidence and the ability to determine how much pressure is needed to move the sheep. This involves a lot of inherited qualities but also some building is necessary while the pup is being reared. You can sometimes see this in a pup by the time he reaches 6 or 7 months old, sometimes later or earlier, but I know from experience that it is a very nice quality to have and work with. Bob

[Shoofly]

There are a lot of terms floating around out there for this stuff, aren't there? How about method? That's another one. It's all so interesting how all those qualities combine.

 

I like the word presence too.

[Guest carol campion]

Yep, planning a "short jog" up your way :~) Sure, I would love to see him. I'm running one in PN so will be there on Monday (and Jan is doing her FIRST PN with Tory ... so I will HAVE to be there to cheer her on :~).

 

Have you tried keeping him further back off (I'm sure you have ... just a thought). If he has the "walk up" then you can keep him out of "eye's way" by keeping him backed off and then use your fast walk up to keep them going. However, if he has the kind of eye that takes him a LONG time to move up on them - then that won't work :~)

 

Robin's comment made me think of all the discussions I've had through the years about the difference between power and courage. I have some dogs that had more courage than they "should have" but had trouble moving sheep. So, is that a lack of power ... or an abundance of courage ... and WHAT is power??? Interesting to talk about ... but the "end game" is moving sheep so we try and "mold" what we have.

 

Hey, Carol ... you got me "started" ... where are you :~)

 

 

We are lambing and have been outside pulling giant headed Texel cross single ram lambs. Not a happening scene.

 

I think eye is one of of terms that is hard to get a consensus on. People have such a different concept of based on the type of dogs they have worked with. My concepts are always changing based on every dog I train and work with.

 

To me, eye is how the dog gets hold of its sheep. Eye is that "method" Robin mentions. I used to think of eye as whether they were sticky or not—clapping down and not getting up. But I realize that it is with their eye that they actually move the sheep. Eye is not a bad thing. It just is. It is how they approach moving stock and the type of eye they have determines how they do that.

 

There are dogs that have a kind of eye where sheep just flow off them. Some have the kind of eye that scares the sheep and they bolt and the dog can't get anywhere near them. Some freeze the sheep with their eye. My Floss has the kind of eye that draws sheep back and slows them. She can walk onto a field of wild sheep and they walk. She draws them back, slows them, then takes hold of them and makes them go. With that type of eye, the trouble occurs with sulky sheep. They still get drawn back onto the dog. Then you need courage and determination. She has the courage and determination but if she didn't, it could be messy! I know of a dog who has this type of eye but has a bit of fear so when he slows the sheep and then has to push, gets very nervous and usually will bust into them. A couple of kinds of eye mixed there.

 

Many times I find that dogs that stick and won't come forward and people claim it have too much eye, especially when young, are unsure or fearful, so it isn't eye at all. It is fear.

 

There is the type of eye that hangs onto the sheep a bit too long when it should cover. There is eye that draws the sheep in on it flanks & outrun. There is eye that makes a dog opinionated and it refuses to let go of its hold on sheep. Handling and managing eye based on the different type of eye is how you can develop power in a dog and the most important aspect of how to approach training each of them. Your training needs to adapt to the type of eye so you can help make the dog more effective.

 

To me power is the ability of a dog to move sheep. But it doesn't necessarily come from within. It can be merely from the look of a dog (a big black dog—a bounding dog—a sharp moving dog) and not from any intention on the part of the dog to move sheep. To me power and courage are different. Courage and determination come from within.

 

But then they need the right feel for where to be. I have trained dogs that freely walk up, but have no sense of where to put pressure on a group, so they just bore in and the sheep spread all around them. No eye to hold things together. So to me you need a dog with the right kind of eye and forward movement that has as its intention to move the sheep. I agree with Lana. The ideal is to have both power and courage in one dog. With the right kind of eye. That's what breeding is all about!

 

In discussing eye/power, I think one can disguise the other and vice versa. I have never run on range ewes. I have run on fresh lambs and fresh undogged ewes and work my dogs on my own lambs. My experience is that you need to find the right distance off the sheep to maintain the dogs contact to make the sheep comfortable while still keeping the dog effective. This involves managing its eye. Dogs with a flowing kind of eye will find that pressure point and the sheep will move freely off of it whereas those same sheep will turn on a dog with eye, though the eye dog may have more courage and determination. The eye stops those sheep from going—even from behind. Dogs with the kind of eye that holds need to be keep further off and helped to find that effective point at which the sheep will still move but the dog isn't sucked into the sheep's space. Then the dogs forward and courage can be more effective.

 

And here comes the obedience thing again. The ones that have gotten sucked into that "eye" zone, be it heading or too close or whatever, need to be able to take whatever command is needed, be it a flank or a stop or a walk up-whatever is needed to release the sheep and get the flow going again.

 

Candy—thanks for being invited to the party. Nice to see you here.

 

Back out to check the sheep.

 

Carol

[Lana]

Bob, like you i get tired of hearing power miss used when folks speak of dogs that work cattle. I cowdog has to have bite, but the good ones don't need to use it very much.

 

I had a light bulb moment this past year when somebody used the term "method" . It was used to tell me to work with the dogs method, not force my method onto the dog. Find out how to best use that dogs "method" for moving sheep. Seems simple, but i guess i just couldn't hear it until i could hear it.

 

Interesting talk about eye..good stuff.

 

I have noticed that many strong eye dogs carry tension that can be hell to work with. For the first time i have a young dog that seems to relax her sheep,I have not trialed her enough to see how that is all going to work, but it is new for me.

 

Lana

[Caroline Reichard]

There are a lot of terms floating around out there for this stuff, aren't there?... It's all so interesting how all those qualities combine.

 

Earlier today I was discussing boxing w/ some of my students, so I guess it was in the back of my mind reading this thread. "Power" and "courage" are both important traits in a boxer but have nearly opposite meanings. "Power" is a boxer's ability to hit hard. "Courage" is the ability to suffer and keep on fighting (Originally I wrote "to get hit hard and keep on fighting," but boxers can suffer from heat, exhaustion, and fear as well.) "Presence," I guess, would be the Mohammed Ali thing: he had the ability to turn something intrinsically ugly (two men brawling over money) into something beautiful, and you couldn't look away when he was doing it. "Method" describes a boxer's particular fighting style. I had never thought about these terms as being so clearly distinguished when describing dogs, but I know exactly how they would differ in a human.

 

Edited to add: Sorry if I have crashed the Open Party.

[abcollie]

I've always liked the term Method as I think that covers "the entire dog" not just "pieces".

 

I also think eye can "make or break" a dog BUT I know some people that do great with dogs that have to much eye ... so it's more than "just" the dog and how much eye. It's the "combo" of dog and handler and HOW the handler HANDLES the eye :~) That's the great thing about this ... it's NEVER the same - sheep/dog/handler/course give it a dimension I don't think any other "sport" has.

 

I was reading the "clappy" thread and I think some of that is a "mind thing" for the dog. He REALLY doesn't hear the command he's so mesmerized by the sheep. He's not even being disobedient ... he literally doesn't hear a command. So, the key is to find something that "breaks" that mental contact he has with the sheep.

 

I've had ONE dog in 30 years that could turn his eye/power on/off depending what the sheep needed. Sheep moved from him and once they turned he just relaxed and worked them. They would lean back on him and he would guide them around. Then when needed (pen/shed) ... he turned his eye back on and held them.

 

I'm not a big believer that just because a dog works cattle they are "strong". I think it takes a really strong dog to go eye to eye (seeing that "eye contact" is a major challenge to a dog) and just keep walking (without gripping or stopping and staring).

 

Good comments by everyone ... I enjoy a discussion where everyone is trying to find a way to improve the dog/handler relationship.

[workindogs]

Well, I'm not sure what to make of all this.....but as I said early on, I think that one problem is distance. When he comes in to push, he doesn't know to get himself back out to a proper distance. Often times he starts with good distance, but some event will cause him to come in to meet the sheep/pressure....then he'll crank in tighter....a control thing. He's not clappy but he can get mesmerized by holding his line/pressure and it can be hard to break that concentration (ie the Jed-zone).

 

I think he's a good dog with considerable talent....but his eye (maybe "method") is getting in the way of success....mostly on range ewes. I'm just trying to figure out how to help him.

[abcollie]

Well, I'm not sure what to make of all this.....but as I said early on, I think that one problem is distance. When he comes in to push, he doesn't know to get himself back out to a proper distance. Often times he starts with good distance, but some event will cause him to come in to meet the sheep/pressure....then he'll crank in tighter....a control thing. He's not clappy but he can get mesmerized by holding his line/pressure and it can be hard to break that concentration (ie the Jed-zone).

 

I think he's a good dog with considerable talent....but his eye (maybe "method") is getting in the way of success....mostly on range ewes. I'm just trying to figure out how to help him.

 

Question Elizabeth ...

 

Do you try and work him like Rye?

[Lana]

I use a sharp "hey" to break Kell's eye..i agree some times he can't hear me. Most times i will stop him, give the correction then go on. I also believe it is a comfort issue, they need to know how to work through the discomfort. Wouldn't you say that some of this is more experience and may come in time for Jed?

 

Lots of weak cow dogs and strong sheep dogs..myths abound almost the two groups especially if` they have not worked both in real life, and trial situations. To me Jed looked much more relaxed on the cattle, i think because he was not so worried they would get away. You can also come up much higher on cattle's shoulder without turning them. Kell is much more relaxed on cattle, and working them in large groups has helped some of his issues on sheep.

 

 

It was also Elizabeth who told me to stop working Kell like Blue. It takes time to learn how to work a dog who is so much different than our other dogs.

 

Lana

[Guest carol campion]

I've had ONE dog in 30 years that could turn his eye/power on/off depending what the sheep needed. Sheep moved from him and once they turned he just relaxed and worked them. They would lean back on him and he would guide them around. Then when needed (pen/shed) ... he turned his eye back on and held them.

 

I think that is the dog we are all looking for! Me anyway!

 

I think he's a good dog with considerable talent....but his eye (maybe "method") is getting in the way of success....mostly on range ewes. I'm just trying to figure out how to help him.

 

It didn't sound like he was clappy at all. Just very opinionated. And he does sound like a good one.

 

Like Candy suggested, I would mess around with how far away you can work him and have him still be effective. I have had some, if I backed them out of where they are comfortable working, kind of lose part of themselves. I would play with that. I would make sure the sheep feel him though-not out of contact. I also would work on getting him to take those off balance flanks that will release the sheep once he is into his zone.

 

Once in a while, in training, you can flex your muscles with a tiny off balance flank just to let the dog know you might need him to be flexible. You might only ask him to move 3" in a direction he doesn't want to go, but it may develop into a tool you can use to get his head out of a zone he is getting sucked into.

 

Carol

[abcollie]

I use a sharp "hey" to break Kell's eye..i agree some times he can't hear me. Most times i will stop him, give the correction then go on. I also believe it is a comfort issue, they need to know how to work through the discomfort. Wouldn't you say that some of this is more experience and may come in time for Jed?

 

It was also Elizabeth who told me to stop working Kell like Blue. It takes time to learn how to work a dog who is so much different than our other dogs.

 

Lana

 

I also use "Hey" to get through to my dogs ... does seem to bring them out of the "trance" doesn't it :@) I use it for my guys to slow down.

 

Does she work Jed to close? (Let's talk about Elizabeth as if she wasn't here :~) --- sometimes it helps to have someone that's watching (that would be you :~) answer as it's hard to work your dog/watch and analyze what's going wrong all at the same time.

 

I think that's something they do in the horse world that I think is great (don't even the TOP ones have a coach)?

 

Yes, I think some dogs work through how to handle different sheep and your idea of having him work big bunches is great (I think I would stop trialing him and just do big bunches for awhile). Those 3 or 5 sheep trying to split and break do bring out the eye in some young dogs. Getting them to relax on a big bunch (hard for them to figure WHICH one to eye :~) helps a lot of the time. I think age/experience and just plain work is the best thing for young dogs.

[abcollie]

I think that is the dog we are all looking for! Me anyway!

 

Carol

 

I'm sure you know who he was :~)

 

Once in a while, in training, you can flex your muscles with a tiny off balance flank just to let the dog know you might need him to be flexible. You might only ask him to move 3" in a direction he doesn't want to go, but it may develop into a tool you can use to get his head out of a zone he is getting sucked into.

 

I think that would help keep you in the "back of his mind" at all times. Maybe increase talking to him (not telling him what to do "per say" as much as keeping in contact so he can't "tune you out")?

[Guest carol campion]

I'm sure you know who he was :~)

 

I bet that would be your Moss, the g-g-grandfather of Robin's Billie.

 

Moss stories please.

 

Carol

[workindogs]

Thanks for all the great ideas...certainly food for thought. I'll try some these ideas out and see if we can make some progress.

 

Candy, I certainly hope I'm not working Jed like Rye...they are 180 degrees apart. As I said before, Jed reminds me a bit of my old Open dog Black who I ran for nearly 6 years (you were on hiatus then)....a scary to sheep, line dog, but much faster moving than Jed. However, I got Black as a trained dog with lots of bells and whistles on him. I think Black has reincarnated himself (tho' still alive) in Jed to finish teaching me the lessons he didn't finish with me. Though a sometimes difficult dog to run, he could be a beauty to watch...even made the SF at Klamath Finals 06 then the DL at WSRC 06...the last two trials of his career, Black went into retirement on top. With Black I had to think hard about how much interference to offer...like Jed, too much command made Black tense but I also didn't want to lose touch and lose the dog into his "zone"...a fine balance of contact but not too much. Also, to focus on drawn out softer whistles. Depending on the situation, flanking on the fly was usually not so good and I usually tried to steady to collect him for a change.

 

I remember watching you run Moss...what a great team the two of you were. A partnership that we all dream about.

 

Thanks