No longer new but still the novice

[Pippin's person]

I feel like I'm in a weird place on these boards--not new enough to ask questions that have fairly clear answers and not experienced enough to participate in many of the discussions (though I read them all and love the new flurry of activity around training for stock work).

 

I don't have specific questions right now, but I'm always curious about how folks got where they are and about different "stops" along the road.

 

So, here's where I've traveled. It's not always been a wonderful ride, but it's definitely been one of my favorites.

 

Summer 2006

--never touched a sheep

--knew only positive reinforcement training and that not very well (though I thought I did)

--Had been a dog owner for almost 5 whole years.

--found an all-breed, AKC-oriented trainer who lived 2 1/2 hours (with traffic) from us. Learned to use "lie down" as a correction and to throw things

--didn't understand "balance", "pressure", "slice", "outrun", "fetch", "lift", "line", "square flanks", among other things

--gleefully started Vergil Holland's book only to stop after 10 pages because I couldn't understand it. Immediately bought Bruce Fought's book and couldn't understand it either.

--thought running fast in tight circles around sheep who stayed at my feet looked like working ability starting to shine through. After all, she circled in both directions

--didn't realize that the sheep will tell you if the dog is right or wrong

--hadn't considered "timing" and had no clue how much it mattered

--thought it was all about the dog

--thought my dogs had plenty of respect for me

 

Spring 2009

--have been up close and personal with a variety of sheep and in a variety of contexts (and can tell the difference--at a glance no less-- between hair and wool sheep )

--have learned a great deal of basic husbandry, understand that sheep go where their heads are turned and that their ears and tails can tell you what they're thinking.

--get that you have to watch both the sheep and the dog but frequently forget to watch one or the other... or both.

--get that managing pressure is key and have increasingly more frequent moments where the stars align and I can actually manipulate the pressure on purpose and as I intend to

--can see a slice even if I don't always anticipate it or stop it before it causes trouble. Those particular synapses took a long time to create.

--know that I am light-years too slow far too often but don't know (yet) how to speed up

--live with the difference between a well-bred and a not-so-well bred working dog

--get that corrections are just information AND I usually remember that--except for those cases where I know the dog is just trying to piss me off ( )

--frequently yell like an idiot, then yell louder and then feel stupid when the dog's response is to eat poop.

--hear other people's whistles as if they are spoken words and can see the dog and the sheep respond like they're part of an orchestra.

--practice my whistles daily in the car. I'm almost there.

--know for certain that I have never tried so hard to learn something or had to think of "I'm doing the best I can" as praise.

[dracina]

Coming from a super-quadruple novice who thought (up until a few days ago) that practicing flanks with a frisbee was possible...I, for one, can not wait to be where you are! I hope that I get it as fast as you did, because you seem to have come a very long way.

 

Can I say "away me" yet, or am I still too new?

[Pippin's person]

Definitely still too new for "Away me"...

 

I feel like I move at the speed of molasses....but I suspect it's about on the low end of average for starting at the very, very beginning. As others have said before, I think folks with some livestock background move a lot faster.

[Laurae]

Great idea for a thread, Robin!

 

My journey so far:

 

2003

-Had never seen sheep up close.

-Had a reactive border collie/aussie mix and was told working sheep might help her "calm down."

-Went to an all-breed trainer who does compete in border collie trials, but he worked the dog the whole time and I understood very, very (very!) little of what was happening or what was supposed to be happening. Stopped when an accident on the field put my dog into a seizure.

 

2006

-Had moved to Colorado, gotten a well-bred border collie, and decided to try again for real this time.

-First training environment was not ideal: worked in a tiny area for way too long with very broke sheep.

-Was told my dog was running over me; didn't believe it. Didn't really understand how a partnership works.

-Also knew only positive reinforcement training and that not very well (though I thought I did).

-Also didn't understand "balance", "pressure", "slice", "outrun", "fetch", "lift", "line", "square flanks", among other things.

-Misunderstood when others with more experience told me it was okay that my young dog wasn't perfect on the field. Let him practice bad habits in the mistaken belief that things would somehow magically get better when he matured. Thought that gave me a free pass to not help him work through his mistakes, though to be honest I didn't have the slightest idea how to help him.

-Latched onto concrete things I could understand and do, like lie the dog down, in the absence of connecting these actions with the bigger picture.

-Was completely unable to understand when it was necessary to enforce commands and when to let the dog work through things. I still struggle with this a bit.

-Because I lacked that judgment, I was not nearly pro-active enough when training.

-Wish I had a training mentor close to me for those early days (and now, too).

-Had a very hard time seeing the big picture and saw no connection between what my novice dog and I were doing and what the open teams were doing.

 

2009

-Kinda where Robin is, but I think she has better sheep-reading skills than I do.

[Debbie Meier]

Boy what a trip...it's all Wayne's fault, I was just going to raise the puppies, acd's that is. My previous dog training expirence was obedience in 4-H, let's see, over 25 years ago. Otherwise I was into horses, team penning horses, reining horses and working cow horses, then we got into mounted shooting, where slow is fast and it's about the least amount of strides while maintaining the same speed from beginning to end and Ranch Horse Shows. Wayne's always had horses and acd's, team roping is his specialty, it's still amazing how he can go out in a group of horses or cattle, shake out a loop and catch a head or a leg depending on what he wanted on the first throw, even after not throwing a loop for a year.

 

2005 went to first clinics and trials with ACDs. Hired a trainer that ended up working out of our place. We only have arena trials right close but kept being told how teaching our dogs to circle and fetch will eventually lead us to 300 yard outrun and double lifts. We borrowed three goats, that were replaced by some sale barn specials. Previously I had sheep, 2 of them, as 4-H projects. Wayne has always had cattle, used his cattle dogs on ranches in Colorado and Kansas, all horseback, basically hated sheep and goats, didn't understand them and didn't want to.

 

2006 went to more trials, would have been happy to complete a course, one obstacle was cause for celebration. I found myself entered into a cattle trial with Sheila when she refused to work for Wayne, had no clue what I wanted. We had some Barbado sheep delivered, couldn't figure out why the guy delivering them was heading out the driveway as the last one stepped off the trailer.

 

2007 Fired the first trainer, decided that his claim of getting his old dog to do a double lift and 300 yard outrun was far fetched, maybe he did it maybe he didn't, but we couldn't see how what we or he was doing now was going to lead us to where we wanted to be.

 

Brought home our first border collie (5 month old pup), decided to go to an open handler that had dogs that Wayne liked (kinda a big deal for a guy that likes ACD's and not Border Collies). I was thinking that we would have a better chance of learning if we had the right dog in the minds of the people offering help, also felt that learning what makes a border collie tick would help us with our ACD breeding program (btw, ACD program is pretty much on hold, atleast for the time being). Besides, an open handler in our area told me that if I wanted to have fun at a trial to buy a Border Collie. Couldn't imagine being able to get a dog to stop and set a drive line from anywhere (what's a drive line?), our world was out-run, lift & fetch, and fetch, and fetch (all our novice trials in our area allow the course to be fetched). "There" meant change directions while wearing which was replaced by "Come bye" and "Away", "Lie down" was used to give the sheep a chance to catch their breaths, and "Araah" meant slow down or get out of that. The stock stick was used to block and steer the dog which sent the dog away from the sheep when you wanted to use it to block the sheep.

 

That year was a trip in itself, produced two clinics here at our place hiring in Marc. Feel, pressure, correct flanks, square flanks, lines, draws, balance, flight zones Was told to forget everything we ever learned about stock dog training, that's been the toughest part.

 

2008 Things started to make sense, actually felt like the fog was clearing, ran novice with Jake, 1 1/2 then, but decided that I needed to forget about winning with a fetch and try to master driving after having it suggested to compete one level below where you train. Paid off when I ran pro-novice late summer at state fair both cattle and sheep, but still not happy with dog, leaking out to stop livestock on drives, and I couldn't stop him and keep him dialed in right. It just was not looking like what I wanted, though what he did do right was viewed as good by the judge, judges advice, "get your dog to stay put" and learn how to handle cattle (for me). Wayne tried running Jake at NE state fair to try and qualify for the cattle dog nursery finals since he would be aged out in 2009, Jake don't listen to Wayne, comment from the other handlers...alot of dog...that leaking to the head caused quite the show, shoot the dam*** dog was Wayne's thought.

 

It is funny, I've had an open handler walk up and ask if I'm finally happy with my dog after being in the hunt at our first trial this year, my first reaction is no, it's still not right, neither sheep or cattle, though with the right draw of stock I think we would be in good shape. But to me it's not worth winning if I'm not happy with the work, now I won't dispute the win, it's just not how I envision a win. Though, looking back to that day I should have been, and was to a degree it was the first time I could trust him, I don't think I had to stop him the entire course. Figuring out how to get it right is my problem, it's not the dogs fault, he's only doing what he thinks is right. I guess that's why I put so much thought into it, I know that if I don't get it right, he's not going to learn the right thing, maybe I don't have a forgiving dog, maybe I'm just not real forgiving....

 

Oh well, that's it in a rambling nutshell .

 

Deb

[desertranger]

I like this.

 

Jin Dec 2008 - April 2009.

What's a sheep?

Took basic obedience at Pet Smart Graduates the only one in his class next friday.

Got very sick.

Voted sexiest dog at the vets.

Does a hard recall from half a mile with whistle only.

Walks in tandem with Abby.

Excellent cafe and street manners.

Has a regular paparazzi following downtown.

Been in the newspaper.

Found a new trainer and starts class on 29 Apr.

and he's only 4 1.2 months old.

 

 

Wait a minute this is not a sheepdog. OMG is it... Ken?

[1sheepdoggal]

To many years and to many miles to have gotten nowhere yet, but I sure have enjoyed the ride, and the great folks and great dogs Ive had/have and met along the way. Its a life long journey, so Im in no hurry.

[Wendy V]

Got a border collie for flyball but got talked into herding lessons by a "friend" .

Went to herding lessons and was confused.

Went to more lessons and cried in frustatration.

Went to clinics and was even more confused.

Lessons, cried, lessons, shouted, more lessons, more confusion, more clinics, more money, more confusion and frustration.

Went to my first trial and cried.

Whined, shouted, cried, pleaded in frustration, paid more money for clinics, books, videos, lessons, and finally achieved a little clarity.

More trials, more dogs, now farm and sheep, still frustrated but crying less. Open dogs now getting older, and hoping I won't be crying over them any time soon.

Now, young dogs and I'm starting the process over again...

[Sue R]

Got first livestock (other than dairy goats) in 1980.

 

Got an adult "trained" Aussie (Jett) in 1985 to help with cattle but he wasn't very useful at all.

 

Given a farm-bred BC/Aussie pup (Rocket) in 1986 that turned out very useful even though his training was pitiful.

 

Got another farm-bred Aussie pup (MacLeod) in 1990 who was very useful for certain things but, again, poorly trained by us.

 

Saw Border Collies in demos and realized they and their abilities were what we needed, especially as all four children were grown and gone, and it was just the two of us trying to manage the cattle with a dog with limited abilities and us with very limited training understanding.

 

Got a pup from a breeder in 2002, lots of grit and potential, but killed by a car as he waited for me at the side of the road.

 

Was given a replacement pup in late 2002 - Celt - who has lots of potential from one parent but lots of "emotional" or temperment issues from the other. Went to some clinics (some good, some not so helpful) and am still taking training when we can.

 

Brought Megan into the family as a rehome in 2003 - poorly bred, she isn't very useful on stock but helps a bit.

 

Was given Bute in 2006 as he was not a saleable pup but had potential to be a useful farm dog, which he is. He'll never be a trial dog but he has some real strengths for farm work in our situation.

 

Bought Dan, well-bred from cattledog lines, in 2009 - and have great hopes for an all-around useful dog on the farm (and maybe a dog that I can trial a bit with).

 

In terms of the dogs and the cattle work - they aren't perfect, my handling is so-so, but they often make all the difference in the world, especially in terms of my attitude towards the necessary farm work (after all, the cattle are my hubby's thing not mine).

 

They have literally changed my life from a home-bound homemaker to someone who has traveled on her own for training, clinics, and trials (almost always just as a volunteer) and has a job to support her "dog habit" along with contributing to family finances.

 

I'm a slow learner - I am no longer "new" but I will always be a "novice".

[hsnrs]

Wild ride for us too. Love this place and all the helpful Border Collie people.

Our journey started in August of 2002. Got Aussies in 2004. Started stock dog lessons in 2006. First trial with trainer handling in 2007. Got dropped by trainer in 2009. Started ourselves shortly after that. Still learning every minute of every day. N