O/T shelties/Whelping pups/questions

[Tammy525]

No, I don't have puppies, but the human mom is not doing much better yet and they are in for a long haul. So, I have a chance of getting them, but I am also concerned about the human lack of time with the pups socialization needs which hit around 3-4 weeks old.

 

They were born July 3rd. Sheltie mix with very nice parent dogs. What I am reading about shelties suggests they have some tendancies toward shyness.

 

This would imply to me that they would need extra early socialization from men/women/children/cats, etc., anything they are likely to spend time with in their adult life. Am I worrying over nothing?

 

Will it matter how much attention they get prior to when we bring ours home at 8 weeks?

 

I am feeling very selfish by worrying about my own pup when their family is in such crisis. Barb (human mom who had the stroke) is the sole breadwinner in the family as well as she carries benefits. There is NO WAY they will be able to afford the shots/deworming due at 6 weeks???? Is 6 weeks right??? I was trying to think of a way to offer to take them all to the vet for their 6 wk, but don't want to offend these nice people.

 

Should I stop worrying? Will it be ok if we get our pup at 8 weeks and start from scratch? I can't decide how persistant I should be about helping in their care. If you all don't think it matters, I will just wait and see. If you all think it is critical I help with socialization I could work on a diplomatic way to intrude.

 

My other question: the mom is VERY protective of the pups and has a fit if anyone tries to enter the house other than the 3 immediate family members. The pups are 3 weeks old. Is this normal mom dog behavior?

 

I am experienced with pups 8 wks+. Clueless before 8 weeks. HELP.

[bc friend]

I don't have exp. w/sheltie pups but I have raised several litters for rescue/vet and one purebred bc litter. I have raised 4 litters w/moms and the others w/o moms. Depending on the mom's own socialization dictated how comfortable she was with strangers being around pups but usually by the time they're around 3 weeks, the moms are usually starting to relax unless they are fearful themselves around strangers in which case they may still try to protect pups by aggressive behavior. For accepting moms, I socialize pups (and mom) from the time I get them; if the pups are orphans, I don't expose them to strangers until after they have their 1st vaccinations. My vet vaccinates orphan pups starting at 3 weeks; pups w/mom (who get colustrum from her) she doesn't vaccinate until they are 5 weeks. She deworms puppies at 2-3 wks and again at 5-6 wks. Hope this helps.

 

You might want to tell this nice family that you really want to help with the pups because you understand how busy they are trying to help mom recover. They may just feel uncomfortable asking for help even though you have previously offered.

 

You're wrong; you're not being selfish. If you were being selfish, you wouldn't be offering to help the entire litter and the sheltie mom. Your new puppy will be lucky to have you.

[nes]

I had to help raise a BC litter and the mom was an angel with people handling her puppies (or didn't care a bit, take your pick ). I wouldn't worry too much about that behaviour though - every mom is different (inc. human moms!!).

 

You can vaccinate puppies at 8 weeks and continue from there that's no problem, it just means they are a little slower to be allowed out in doggy society.

 

If the dogs are showing signs of worms it's important they be dewormed asap - and really there should be no reason they can't do it. At our vet it was around $40 for the entire litter of 4 inc. the mom (I think - it was cheap but I don't remember - I didn't pay for it).

 

If you've payed for the pup upfront, or even just a downpayment there is nothing wrong with what you're thinking (just don't bother them). If you havn't, then why not offer? that might really help this family out :

 

unless the puppies are getting no attention at all 8 weeks is still young enough to introduce them to anything you want

 

nes.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Tammy525:

This would imply to me that they would need extra early socialization from men/women/children/cats, etc., anything they are likely to spend time with in their adult life. Am I worrying over nothing?

Shelties are bright, alert, attentive and fun companions. I'm crazy about them. Shyness is an issue in the breed, but some shelties are very bold and outgoing, plus these pups are mixed. Socialization is very important, as with any puppy. Don't coddle them, but don't push them too fast either if they're afraid. When I see fearful behavior, I am "bracing" with them. Think of a no-nonsense nurse who will take care of you but not baby you.

 

Shelties are usually very sensitive and gentle souls, so you want to use gentle discipline. Positive training goes a long, long way with them -- show them what you want more than what you don't want. For instance, they can be serious barkers. I've found rewarding them for stopping or refraining to be much more effective than punishing them for barking. Most of them tend to be chow hounds, so their food motivation is very helpful in training But watch out, that chow hound aspect is why you often see fat shelties.

 

I've never raised a litter so all I can suggest about the worming/shots thing is talk with your vet, other breeders and look around on the Internet for information. Good luck!

[Tammy525]

Thanks all, I am feeling a little better. I am a positive discipline person/gentle teaching person with dogs and kids, so that won't be a problem. Scout has taught me a lot about sensitive dogs, I had only had retrievers before and wow what a difference. The first time he went for the garbage and I yelled (being used to dragging the retriever out of the trash when she was in it up to her hind end, gobbling all the way) anyway, he looked like his heart would break and he was almost in a circle his tail tucked so far in. I thought I would die and was grateful he forgave me. We have been very gentle since.

 

I will call my vet on Monday, I know she is likely to give me a break if I offer to bring all the pups in for their dewormings and vaccinations.

 

Liz, I would appreciate any advice on the barking thing, I have read that Shelties love to bark. Dad is a purebred and mom is the mix, but she is sheltie size and looks like a sheltie. She is grey berle, I don't know if these are sheltie markings?? She might have a little corgi as well.

 

Will you tell me about bracing? I do know how to be the no-nonsense nurse, my general attitude is to express sympathy for your pain, but you are going to do this. (lots of experience with hip fractures and knee replacements who just want to give up with the pain of it)

 

Thanks and thanks again, I want to help these folks, and protect the pups at the same time. My end goal is to end up with a healty puppy that will be a companion to my littlest (almost 4) and a friend to Scout. Of course the training will mostly come from the grown-ups in my house, but Meg is the one dying for a smaller dog.

[laurie etc]

Tammy- if you get the pups they can be wormed with Nemex or Nemex II (or a generic version of pyrantel pamoate)- inexpensively available at Walmart or Tractor Supply. It's a liquid you feed- I use a syringe and pups usually just lap it down (dosed by the pound - the Nemex II uses 1 ml per 2 pounds of body weight). I'd do pups every 2 weeks from 4 weeks old on...until they go to their new homes. Check with your vet, but as I understand it, vaccines don't need to be started until at least 8 weeks old - I use only the ML Distemper/Parvo combo at 9 weeks, maternal antibodies should still be active until at least 12 weeks old anyways. I'll post a link to the current AVMA recommended protocol, if I have time later.

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by laurie etc:

I'll post a link to the current AVMA recommended protocol, if I have time later.

Well, here's a link to Dr Dodd's recommendations for minimal vaccination, which I follow.

http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Tammy525:

Liz, I would appreciate any advice on the barking thing, I have read that Shelties love to bark.

Yes, you might as well know the truth. They tend to be recreational barkers. The big mistake I made with my girl sheltie, other than naming her Sassy (for a while I swore my next dog was going to be named Silence Patience Obedience), was giving her free access to the backyard when I wasn't home (dog door). She developed into a nuisance barker because I wasn't there to stop her before it became a very ingrained habit.

 

The two main things I did to stop the noise were 1) Reward her for not barking or stopping barking before she got on a jag and 2) Pulling her in and closing off her access to the backyard for barking jags.

 

At first, she was rewarded simply for coming at my call in the middle of her barking. The reward was usually just a couple of pieces of kibble (she's a typical sheltie chow hound) or some other small treat. She's clever and as much as she adores barking, she adores eating even more. Very quickly she became quite good at stopping after a few barks or not barking at all and running to me, even into the house to find me.

 

You do need to be careful with this kind of set-up that the dog doesn't learn "Go bark, then stop and get the reward. Go back and bark some more." Some dogs can actually increase the unwanted behavior this way. I didn't see Sassy doing this, but I did start to up the criteria for her to earn her treat. Also, if she pulled herself off of something before starting to bark or stopped mid fence fight, I'd give her a small jackpot of several kibble and fuss over her.

 

Making her come inside was losing what she loved most -- being outside. With something as self-reinforcing as barking is to a sheltie, positive reinforcement just may not cut it as far as getting them to stop. This was especially true of fence fighting with the tiny dogs behind us.

 

Because I get so distracted I sometimes kept her inside for 20, 30, 60 minutes before remembering to let her back outside. This isn't what I meant to do and I know I haven't made the best use of the time outs. It would have be more effective to only keep her in for a couple minutes and then let her outside. This might involve several time outs in a row, but would be clearer to her. I think dogs can see cause and effect much better that way.

 

I no longer allow Sassy access to the backyard unless I'm home to supervise her because I think she would fall back into bad habits. Over time, she has become the least barky of my dogs. In fact, when one of the other dogs starts on a jag, she runs to me and waits to be told she's a good girl and be given her little bit of kibble.

 

Will you tell me about bracing? I do know how to be the no-nonsense nurse, my general attitude is to express sympathy for your pain, but you are going to do this.

 

That is it exactly -- sympathetic, but encouraging. Gentle but firm. I don't fuss over a frightened dog, but I do let him know I'm aware that he is afraid or worried. Also give attention/rewards for doing what you want rather than trying to comfort them (praise, cookie, petting for sitting by your side making eye contact as opposed to a quick pat and "you'll be fine" for trying to hide).

 

I wish I had known about clicker training with my first sheltie -- he was shy to an extreme. He made a lot of progress in his short life and taught me more than any other dog. But I think I could have helped him even more with clicker training. I can't say it enough -- shelties' love of food goes a long way in training and behavior modification.

 

Any ideas on what you plan to name the wee one?

[Tammy525]

Rosie or Ruby if we get a girl. We have not chosen the pup yet, there are 4 boys and 4 girls. 4 are black with white collars and paws, 4 are gray/black with black spots (merle?). They are almost blueish. We are planning to get a girl, as Scout is a boy, but personality will be the first criteria, we need a brave soul to manage in our household (4 kids, 11, 11, 6, 3, and 3 cats who have no trouble telling Scout his place, which is NOT on top)

 

Thank you for all your help. Anything else you can think of would be great. Can you recommend any sheltie sites? I am not too too worried about the barking. Scout is only outside when we are, so the same would go for dog #2. We have little window access out the front and there isn't much to bark about in the back unless a bark is actually required!

 

Laurie, thanks for your vet info, I will check out that website. Still haven't heard anything from them, so just waiting and seeing at this point. My dh is in moderately regular contact with a friend of the family who says she is not really doing a whole lot better and needs to be transferred to a city hospital where they can do surgery on her carotids. Dh asked this friend to remind them that we are serious about being willing to take all the dogs until it is time for them to go to their new homes. I don't want to pester them....