I know what got mine...need advice

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

In my case, I know our 4-H sheep were attacked by two dogs last Saturday afternoon (a week ago), a Rottie and a Rott/Chow mix. One of my kids happened on the situation when she went to Scotchtown to check on them, she called me, I called animal control and got up there as fast as I could. Out of the five sheep we have, two had obviously taken a lot of abuse, one (the wether) much more seriously than the other (the ewe). I did call our sheep vet, she lives nearby and came to assess give us help with them.

 

We vaccinated them all for tetanus with the regular annual vaccines they would be getting this spring anyway, and the two are on procaine penicillin with benzithine (forgive spelling) every other day for two weeks, and they had banamine for a couple of days last weekend. All of them got antibiotic shots on Saturday just in case they had bites we couldn't see, they are pretty wooly Hog Island sheep. The wether's elbows are still swollen and he spends 90% of his time down. All in all, the wounds look fairly good, but I am worried about infection deep in those elbows. He was really chewed up, damn dogs! He doesn't get up when I come to check on him, but he will if I prod. Today he was quicker about it, but what I need advice about it how to get him to eat. I put a smidge of grain out to tempt them all to let me see if they're all okay, but he isn't interested, same as the nice alfalfa he would normally love. I expected him to be off for a few days, but it's been a week now.

 

I have a email into the vet for this same question, and I did ask her about probiotics, and she suggested forcing a little yogurt on him. Any ideas from been there, done that situations you folks had?

 

BTW, the dogs were pets on the loose from a half mile away, no rabies, no licenses, and the owners are in hot water, we have really tough laws here. My poor 4-H kid knows the kid from the dogs' family, talk about an unfortunate thing to have to deal with at 16.

[Bo Peep]

In my case, I know our 4-H sheep were attacked by two dogs last Saturday afternoon (a week ago), a Rottie and a Rott/Chow mix. One of my kids happened on the situation when she went to Scotchtown to check on them, she called me, I called animal control and got up there as fast as I could. Out of the five sheep we have, two had obviously taken a lot of abuse, one (the wether) much more seriously than the other (the ewe). I did call our sheep vet, she lives nearby and came to assess give us help with them.

 

We vaccinated them all for tetanus with the regular annual vaccines they would be getting this spring anyway, and the two are on procaine penicillin with benzithine (forgive spelling) every other day for two weeks, and they had banamine for a couple of days last weekend. All of them got antibiotic shots on Saturday just in case they had bites we couldn't see, they are pretty wooly Hog Island sheep. The wether's elbows are still swollen and he spends 90% of his time down. All in all, the wounds look fairly good, but I am worried about infection deep in those elbows. He was really chewed up, damn dogs! He doesn't get up when I come to check on him, but he will if I prod. Today he was quicker about it, but what I need advice about it how to get him to eat. I put a smidge of grain out to tempt them all to let me see if they're all okay, but he isn't interested, same as the nice alfalfa he would normally love. I expected him to be off for a few days, but it's been a week now.

 

I have a email into the vet for this same question, and I did ask her about probiotics, and she suggested forcing a little yogurt on him. Any ideas from been there, done that situations you folks had?

 

BTW, the dogs were pets on the loose from a half mile away, no rabies, no licenses, and the owners are in hot water, we have really tough laws here. My poor 4-H kid knows the kid from the dogs' family, talk about an unfortunate thing to have to deal with at 16.

I'm so sorry about your sheep, but really glad you found the owners. They can pay the bills!

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

Funny, not sure that makes it better, but I appreciate the thoughts. I pulled some ideas off Sheepdog-L from someone in a similar case of sheep having trouble eating. The vet emailed me back overnight and has some ideas, she wants to see him again, she is so good.

I expressed to a friend how disappointed I was that the dogs' owners had not inquired once about how the sheep were, nor had they apologized for the attack. I'd be all over that one had my dogs done it. It wouldn't be comfortable, but honorable.

Thanks to all for your help.

[juliepoudrier]

Debbie,

I hope the wether recovers. I might have tried molasses in his water or some of the Nutri-drench type products that you could get in him with a dosing syringe. I'm guessing eating soft stuff would be easier than hay. I don't have a suggestion for why he's not getting up, unless his injuries have made him more sore than y'all originally thought. If you used penicillin, I might consider also using a long-acting abx like oxytetracycline, and then since I'd be giving a bunch of antibiotics, I'd probably add Probios to the regimen so the critters in his rumen would be all killed or messed up. I hope he recovers.

 

As for the neighbors' dogs, I hope someone impressed on them that the dogs could be shot for such behavior. I don't get people who seem not to care about *anoyone else's* animals (pets or livestock). I hope they at least got a fine for lack of licenses and had to quarantine the dogs at their expense if they weren't vaccinated. I'd certainly approach them about paying the vet bills, especially since they don't seem to give a rat's a$$.

 

J.

[bcnewe2]

Have you tried vit. B injections? It might stimulate his appetite.

Otherwise, I'd be dosing him daily with a Nutra drench type product.

Also maybe more banamine incase he is internally bruised and still in pain. I had a blocked ram long ago, and to keep water in him till we could get him unblocked I drenched him with as much water as I could get in him to keep him hydrated. We ended up doing a bit of home surgery and he lived. My vet thought that without keeping him hydrated he wouldn't have made it

Seems like they either have the will to live or not. Sad when you try so hard to help them make it and they give up.

 

Good luck.

I'll never know if it was coyotes that damaged my sheep enough that I had to but 2 of them down or dogs. My neighbors really think is was feral dogs or ranging neighbor dogs, but up till that point I had never seen stray dogs on my prop. In the last 2 years or so, I've seen maybe 3 stray dogs that were close but not on my prop. and 1 that my BC's all went after, scared me that they were going to get into it but 3 bc's sent one stray packing pdq without any connecting.

 

I'm really sorry. Why do people not see the value in the life of livestock. It's a sad day that it ends up being the dogs fault and it suffers, when the damn people could have just as easily stopped this before it happened. I could forgive if they were understanding to what was done but would find it almost impossible to get over it if they were callous like you've described.

 

Good luck with your wether.

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

Thanks for the suggestions, the vet met me up there last night and he was up better and one elbow is less swollen, the other we poked and made for more drainage. She's okay with keeping on the antibiotics we are using, and we dosed him with vanilla yogurt (it smelled delish at 6pm!!) and I will add bute today if he stays less than normally active. His pain is pretty daunting, but she said we can't use Banamine but six times (BID), so that was done by last Tuesday. Bute is a loading dose (in his 200# case, 2G) then 1/4 to 1/5 that dose EOD thereafter. She uses it for a few arthritic sheep she manages, and except for the stomach issues, it serves them well. I had no idea.

Yeah, the people...4-H kid told her mom she understood the owners shot one of the dogs, the one they felt did it, not sure how that sits with the county since they were both in quarantine. Animal control officer said if she had arrived when they were still in the pasture, she was required to shoot them, no questions asked. I would bet folks around here have no idea about this when they keep animals in "invisible" fencing and it fails. I am tallying up the costs for this episode, hope to write the judge a note about the whole thing to get back vet bills for this. Still waiting to hear from AC about if I can do that.

I will keep it brief and to the point (LOL).

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

OH...just wanted to express my appreciation again, I am printing off all these suggestions, and putting them in the notebook for the project, and my reference. Stuff like this is invaluable.

Also, I checked into Bill Fosher's Edgefield forum, great stuff. Julie, I really liked the "what to keep around when keeping sheep" lists, really helpful.

Gotta run gotta yogurt date to keep!

[bcnewe2]

Glad tp hear that he's getting better. Also really glad to hear about the banamine and 6 times max dose. I didn't know that.

I used Bute on Mick (the dog) when he was down with a couple TBD's it was the dif in him being able to walk or not. Nothing else gave him any relief. Now a days, vets don't use it much on dogs. Most are suprised that Mick did so well on it.

 

You can also use probiotics if it's easier than yogurt. But guess you can't help finish the leftovers afterwards

 

I guess they thought shooting the dog would make it all better. What a shame for all involved. Hope the 4-H kids are taking something away from this that isn't so horrible. If one kid learns how important it is to keep their own dogs out of trouble when they grow up, then you can count at least 1 positive out of this mess.

 

Good luck with the judge.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I don't mess around with yogurt anymore. I keep on hand human quality probiotics- you can order it online or find it in the refrigerated case of a health food store. The level of active CFUs is so much higher that you can just drop a 1/4 teaspoon in the mouth of an ill animal - it tastes good, it's low stress dosing, and more of it gets where it needs to be.

 

Always separate probiotics two hours from any antibiotics.

 

I agree with the vitamin B. I was lucky enough to have access to two different vets where I used to live, who personally kept sheep and loved working with mine. Both of them really promoted vitamin B as a first line of defense for any type of stress.

 

And you are doing great on the rest too. Don't over fuss over any of these guys - let time and quiet rest do the job. Keep two types of hay in front of them - basic lower protein and the good stuff - sometimes they may feel like eating the lower quality stuff while they nibble their grain or concentrates - it's like the sheepy version of toast with butter.

 

I had to go after a neighbor for the same situation, trying to get some relief for vet bills and really just impress on them the seriousness of letting their dogs "play" with livestock. One of the neighbors was intensely remorseful, executed the dog in question almost immediately because he couldn't guarantee it wouldn't happen again, and helped with vet care and whatnot. He also made sure his grandkids understood why "their" dog now occupied a hole in the woods.

 

But the other neighbor felt that his dogs had more of a right to roam the neighborhood and it was my job to protect my sheep adequately from the whims of his dogs. IF it was his dogs, which he doubted, because "he knew his dogs wouldn't hurt a fly." But he had two witnesses besides us who had seen his dogs messing with our sheep.

 

This was pre-LGD days by the way, just a month after we'd gotten our first sheep.

 

I sent him a "break bad" letter warning him that he actually wasn't on good legal ground, and that I was prepared to go the next step. He immediately capitulated and paid his part of the multiple dead sheep (a considerable cost since I had insanely started my shepherding career with registered sheep ).

 

Sadly, it did introduce a coolness into our relations with most of the neighborhood, though not our two immediate neighbors, thankfully (including the family who stepped up to their responsibility immediately).

 

I learned two lessons. These apply only to me, by the way - I'm not saying this is a universal principle.

 

Lesson one: Don't use pedigreed sheep to learn on, whether just starting out, or some new management method. Cheap sheep for me all the way.

Lesson two: Livestock guardians. I'll never go without.

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

Becca,

 

Perfect opportunity to ask a dumb question! I have access to both...do you use Vitamin B12 or Vitamin B Complex? How much for a 200 pounder? I read about using it pre-stress (like taking them to the State Fair for ten days), and never have. This seems like the right situation to me. I was lucky to have the Banamine, Bute, and penicillin around from horses. The small animal doc I work for also said the same thing about the better grade human probiotics vs yogurt, but he actually seems to like it now. This has been such a good learning experience for us. You gave lots of great info!

 

BTW, last night he was MUCH better. Guess he hit a plateau over the last few days: live, die or do some D. thing.

 

I also agree with your about the choice of "papered" sheep vs "learner" ones! When we asked GW's Mount Vernon for six starter sheep, we asked for wethers since we figured it was not appropriate to waste good breeding stock if we failed to be good shepherds. They (GWMV) were kind of amused because they didn't typically castrate the boys that they had, kept back the very few they used for breeding stock and let the others go to market intact (most of them). The ewes they kept for the herd or for other breeders. When we went to pick them up, we got home with five wethers and one ewe...somebody goofed. She's a great looking gal, but we have never bred her...wonderwhen it would be too late, actually. One guy died two years back from nasal tumors, a breed problem. To date, we've done well by them, and they are interesting sheep...I love them.

 

LSG: I SO agree, but we can't have them at Scotchtown, they would be a problem with the public and our liability. We agreed if this kind of situation ever bcame a problem, we would end the project. This is the first issue we have had with them in five years, and they have become a real big part of the place. Between them, Founding Fathers education, the Naturalization ceremonies there, historical re-enactments and history camp, our club has livened up the place (okay, a shameless brag).

 

I am figuring to include how these sheep are critically endangered species, 4-H sheep, and anything else I can to throw in to bring home to the dog owners how stupid it is to not contain dogs. Sheep vet said she had to put down a $10,000 alpaca because of a degloving lower jaw issue once, and the owner had let her alpaca insurance lapse! I feel bad for them in a way because these are all animals acting out their roles in animal life, but their lack of responsibility as owners following this episode nailed it for me. I do worry about being good neighbors, but heck, the sheep had current (by vet standards) rabies vaccinations, so how tough can it be to do right by the durn dogs? Geez Louise.

[juliepoudrier]

Debbie,

Not Becca, but I use the fortified B complex for any animal that's off its feed for whatever reason. They get the nutritional benefit of the multiple B vitamins, plus the appetite stimulant effect. My bottle here says to give sheep a dose of 5 mL per 100 pounds. I give it subQ to avoid damaging muscle. Note that it *stings*, so you might get a not-so-nice reaction from the sheep. With 10 cc for a 200-lb wether, I'd probably inject in two locations.

 

When I had a ewe injure herself on the fence (running headlong into a gate, with resulting neurological damage) the first thing I gave her was banamine and Fortified B. This was on a weekend, naturally, and my vet told me the same thing about limiting the amount of banamine given when I called him on Monday (because of the potential for ulcers I think is what he said--I'm seeing him today and will ask again). He also said that banamine and steroids should not be given at the same time. I had given her another shot of banamine that morning and then switched her over to high doses of dexamethasone starting that afternoon. She recovered, although she's not as steady on her feet as the rest of the sheep.

 

I started out with a coiuple of bottle lambs, and some purebred unregistered sheep (a breed known to be hardy and self-sufficient, by the way) that I got fro a good price from a friend. I added registered sheep fairly quickly too. But then I had grown up with livestock, so maybe had a knowledge advantage there. Plus I knew shepherds who could give me advice when I needed it.

 

I'm glad the wether is recovering, and I think it's great that you are going to take this bad experience and at least try to turn it into an educational experience for your 4H kids and the public.

 

Oh, on the LGD front, if you can't have dogs, what about a guard donkey or two? Some say they aren't as effective, but if they fit in with the rest of the theme going for Scotchtown, they'd provide some protection and they are pretty darn cute!

 

J.

[gail]

Hi Debbie,

 

Glad to hear your wether is doing better also.

 

I would typically give a 200# sheep Vit B complex 5-7cc/twice a day. As long as he is eating & drinking, I think you can be pretty confident that he will recover.

 

As to LGDs & guard donkeys, I have 3 LGDs & a donkey. A couple of my LGDs would probaby be less of a liability than my donkey. You could not guarantee no liability with any guard animal, but I think if you selected the right breed and the right animal of that breed, you could make it work.

 

gail

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

You want the B-complex because the B-6 helps the liver clear out toxins, a problem with sheep wounds - so keep it up even when the appetite comes back. I'd give about 5 ccs to a 200 pounder, twice a day. You seriously can't OD, the only consideration I really take into account is the fact that it's an irritant. Ie, hurts like heck, so I go a bit lighter initially while we are still in a touch and go stage. The main thing I've had to use it for, is baby lambs and post-travel stress.

 

The other thing I use it for is a heavy worming schedule on an individual sheep. A very wormy sheep can go into a post-worming shock from the sudden jolt of dead worms hitting - I don't know, the liver or gall bladder or something. Vitamin B prevents this. Sometimes I may only do B, but minimally that's what I'll get into an ill or injured sheep.

[Sue R]

I've been following this, Debbie, and am glad that your wether seems to be progressing. What a shame that it happened in the first place.

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

Well, I just got back from Scotchtown, he died. He must have just passed on by his body temp and lack of rigor mortis, so I (yeah, we...had to call the spouse for this one) got him in the back of the truck, brought him home and await the okay to dispose of him from Animal Control.

 

I sheared him while I had him there, to see what the injuries looked like without the wool, holy cow! Such bruising, and this had been two weeks. He never did really have an appetite, and spent almost all his time down after the attack. Wish I knew what I could have done to get him through this, I feel like I could have done better if he hadn't been eight miles west of here and not on my way to anywhere, and I had maybe gotten a better handle on his eating, but he was so painful. I'm glad it's over, honestly.

 

I have to go after the dog owners in civil court if I want them to pay for anything as it turns out. I sure did learn a lot though, thanks to all. I want to go cry now. Later...

[Liz P]

So sorry to hear that this happened. I was also told by some very unhelpful police and an animal control officer that I would have to take the owner of the dog that attacked Sage to court in order to get anything done. It's a real shame they won't do their job so that people will think twice about taking responsibility for their own actions.

[Sue R]

Sorry to hear that, Debbie.

 

I understand that sheep that have their wool pulled hard can get very badly bruised. Poor fellow.