anyone have some "little tips"

[Bo Peep]

I have a couple I've used. There's nothing in the rule books (believe me it's been a LONG time) that says you can't set your dog on it's side, the direction it's going, and take a step to send it off.

 

Also, with my softer dogs, I left the tags on- they rattled and the sheep didn't need so much interaction between the dog and sheep.

 

I was just wondering if anyone used these or different techniques to help their dogs along. Like with a harder, stronger dog, take all the tags off. Just wondering if little tricks helped?

 

I'm getting just a tad back into it again- More disappointed in me than my dog. I wish things could move more in slow motion- LOL. Maybe me a little quicker and didn't fall down so much, but it's a "soft dirt"

[Wendy V]

Just my opinion, leave the tricks aside and just train your dog to do it right. I would work on setting things up so the action can slow down. With time and expereince, your reaction time will improve.

[Bo Peep]

Thanks Wendy- Lesson today, so I'm up early and excited.

[Chesney's Girl]

I have worked Chesney with a collar on and off, mostly off. I have never noticed a difference in the way the sheep react and I doubt that the sheep are really worried about a little jingle coming from the dog. Plus I would think after a while whether or not the tags did have an effect on the sheeps response to the dog, would become used to the noise and stop moving if the dog truly didn't have enough push. Like Wendy said, train up your dog on appropriate stock to build confidence if its lacking, then you wont have to worry about these little tricks.

[Debbie Meier]

I have a couple I've used. There's nothing in the rule books (believe me it's been a LONG time) that says you can't set your dog on it's side, the direction it's going, and take a step to send it off.

 

Also, with my softer dogs, I left the tags on- they rattled and the sheep didn't need so much interaction between the dog and sheep.

 

I was just wondering if anyone used these or different techniques to help their dogs along. Like with a harder, stronger dog, take all the tags off. Just wondering if little tricks helped?

 

I'm getting just a tad back into it again- More disappointed in me than my dog. I wish things could move more in slow motion- LOL. Maybe me a little quicker and didn't fall down so much, but it's a "soft dirt"

 

 

Wow, tricks I've been told a few and I guess if you didn't want to address the problems you could use tricks to cover the symptoms. This past spring I got chastised for not setting my dog up on the outrun, then I started to think about it, if my dog can't give me the correct direction from my feet he's not going to give it to me at a distance where I can't help him, I'd look kinda funny running out to set my dog up for an inside flank. I look at the same with pressure problems, if the dog is to strong taking the tags off just fixes it for the moment, once the dog figures out he's not getting the response he expects from the sheep he's going to push harder to compensate, same with adding the tags, if the dog is not wanting to move into the pressure and the tags create pressure the dog would probably compensate and move further out.

 

It's a tougher road, but teaching the dog to give you the proper response when you give them a specific command and making sure they are applying the proper pressure to the sheep to create the response you expect will pay you back in the long run, especially if you want to run higher levels.

 

There are ways to slow it down, in most cases people seem to be afraid to slow it down fearing they are going to lose their dogs enthusiasm or drive, but if the dog is wrong, slowing them down or stopping them is the key to getting future change in behaivor and reprogramming an incorrect response into the correct one. Heck, when I severly sprained my ankle in February I found alot of ways to slow it down and keep the areas I needed to correct closer to me, I discovered pretty quick that if it was wrong at a distance it was also wrong at hand, bring it in close and fix it at hand and build distance then you don't have to run or be in the middle of it, it's only been recently that I could even trot and I still worry about twisting my ankle and having it give out, there are days it still hurts and crackles and pops, so I do little running, even with my pups.

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

Wow, tricks I've been told a few and I guess if you didn't want to address the problems you could use tricks to cover the symptoms. This past spring I got chastised for not setting my dog up on the outrun, then I started to think about it, if my dog can't give me the correct direction from my feet he's not going to give it to me at a distance where I can't help him, Deb

Just a point of clarification: I think a lot of people would NOT consider how they set their dog up for the outrun as a "trick;" instead they teach the dog from early on that how the dog is set is an indication of how far and wide the dog should cast in looking for its sheep. This may not matter in the lower classes, where the dog generally can see the sheep at the set out, but in large fields and long distances (or for double lifts where the sheep are set off to the side rather than in the center of the field), where/how you set the dog for the outrun can be a crucial piece of information for the dog and can save lost points having to redirect the dog on the outrun. Note: this is not the same thing as setting the dog behind you to try and slingshot it out so that it will run wider--which is indeed a trick, and one that will come back to bite the handler in the a$$; this is setting the dog properly to the side you want it to run out on and then letting the angle you set the dog at tell it something about how far and wide it should expect to go.

 

Those who have said there's no substitute for proper training are right. Little tricks may cover up some training/dog issues, but they will ultimately hold you back from success at the highest levels of competition. Having set sheep a lot, though, I can tell you that jingling tags are (generally) unsettling to sheep, so if you think the jingling is helping a weaker dog, it's probably not because the trade off is sheep that are nervous at the lift (and perhaps later at the pen and shed) no matter what the skill of the dog.

 

J.

[Laurae]

I just got back from a clinic with Don Helsley and Pat Shannahan, and we worked range ewes with Don. One dog had tags on his collar and Don made a point of explaining that it probably wouldn't make too much of a difference with a farm flock, but leaving the jingly collar on that dog would likely spook the range ewes and affect their behavior such that the dog would have a more difficult time controlling them, particularly during the shed and pen.

[stockdogranch]

Interesting. I'd never heard this one before. My dogs generally work "naked," so I never really thought about jingling tags. Course, even when mine do wear a collar, they don't have tags, so it's not an issue.

 

I also agree that just training your dog properly is best in the long run. I do have a pet peeve of people recalling the dog/calling the dog to them to get an inside flank. Bugs the heck out of me. Just teach the flank,

 

A

[airbear]

I was at a clinic this weekend, and my trainer said "You don't trial Lou with his tags jingling like that, do you?" We were working ram lambs and I guess she figured they were not loving the clang-clang of his tags (and his tags are very noisy).

 

He never wears a collar when he trials (old agility habit - dog always runs naked) but when we're just working/practicing, he has his loud collar on most of the time. The sheep that we work most regularly are pretty dog-broke, and don't seem to notice and/or mind his tags.

[Amelia]

Hello all. Boy, I would sure hate to attempt a tight turn at the post with my dog in a jingly collar at say.....Meeker. The lift would likely have been a little skiffy and you probably wouldn't have to worry about the shed or pen at all. The overseas blackies were so spooky that a poorly timed twitch would send them into orbit. They are a good example of why I never, ever blow whistles at hand and, actually, that's a good example of my kind of "trick".

 

I've seen folks blow ear-splitting whistles at hand happily oblivious to the effect on sheep. So, when I whisper to my dog at hand, I have an edge and most people have no clue.

[Lenajo]

I've seen dogs get hooked by horns through their collar. They can also get hung in brush and fences.

 

So, other than a training dragline in the early (closely supervised on calm stock) stages mine work commando.

[Lenajo]

I've seen folks blow ear-splitting whistles at hand happily oblivious to the effect on sheep. So, when I whisper to my dog at hand, I have an edge and most people have no clue.

 

Viv Billinghman points out that when frightened, sheep "whistle" through their noses. Handlers whistling when right on top of the sheep has a similar effect.

[juliepoudrier]

Yep, I always speak to my dogs for close-in work as well.

 

J.

[somewhereinusa]

Sound is a funny thing, in certain conditions (heat,grass,hill,wind,etc) it's hard enough for your dog to hear. Why would you want something hanging close to it's ears that is going to add to the general noise?

 

Your dog should always stand on the side you're going to send it. A crossover is a crossover whether it's on your feet, behind you or in the middle of the field

[mayflower]

"

[Bo Peep]

Very good advice by all!!!! Thank you!

[Sue R]

Wow. No "hate mail" but I while I agree with most of what Mayflower said, I'm not sure why the so-negative post. Respondents to the OP have repeatedly pointed out that good training is the ideal and "tricks" are not a substitute for good training.

 

As for collars, a collar with ID need not be jingly - my dogs have their ID riveted on so they can wear ID, be tied or chained, and work without tags jingling. It doesn't have to be a question of collar and ID or no collar and no ID.

 

I've been a volunteer at Bluegrass for the last four or five years, and am an absolute novice nobody in the trialing and working sheepdog/cattledog world. Your dogs did work way far off the sheep, maybe making jingly collars a non-issue.

 

It seems pretty consistent that the advice is against jingly collars, and that's the advice I take. I look on this thread as more of "advice" on how to do a good job as a handler on the trial field (like not standing in the way of the sheep, the way I have done, for example) rather than looking to subsitute "tricks" for good handling. Your results may vary...