Wondering if I should have???

[1sheepdoggal]

I got a new young dog about 2 weeks ago, he is relativly started, 15 months old, and a nice little dog. I hadnt done much with him, in the way of training, simply working him on what he already knows, ( we're bonding and learning to honor and trust each other) and Ive have had very little if any need to disaplin, outside of a word or sound. If before I aquired him he was walking out on the feild with his handler and not leaving for sheep before being sent, Ive not seen it in him yet, so I take him out on a short line, and down him, take the leash off and have him practice a little patience, then I;ll send him for the sheep. Getting him to stay with me on the feild until I send him isnt the problem, I will get that soon enough, but because he just runs out to gather up the sheep when he gets on the feild, is where I ran into a bit if a dilemma this evening. I had all the collies out this evening for a potty break, and my GSD and Std Poodle. I decided to go ahead and give the sheep some grain, and wanted to bring in my Chris to hold sheep off till I got the feed down, which we do lately, often. When the other dogs are out, all just watch, and are quiet and well behaved, except this evening, some thing set off the GSD and Poodle and they started barking and running the fence line, which made the collies join in. Everyone was excited and running and barking. I went to the gate, and was going to put a stop to the hay day everyone was having, and opened the gate to let Chris out. As she walked out, the new dog, ran straight in and after the sheep. He has never rushed the gate before, but then, he is new to me and I him, and it was all pretty exciting even for my non BC's. My first instinct was to tell him "that'll do here!" Which I did. My command was un heeded. Called his name, and repeted the command. Nothing, he is still out there gathering and bringing sheep to me. I wanted to run out and stop his working period, as he wasnt listening, but in leiu of my trying to be a kinder more understanding handler, I didnt do what my basic instincts told me to do, which was to stop all motion, have him down, walk up and grab his butt and haul him off that feild with him uderstanding that under no uncertin terms, I was pissed. But I didnt. I allowed him to bring the sheep, flanked him a couple of times, and then called him off and away we went, off the feild, with no problem and he called off immediatly, as he has done since I aquired him. I am of two minds right now about what I wanted to do, and what I did. Had I simply downed him and quickly marched over, took him by the collar and unceremoniously drug him off the feild and deposited him outside the gate, as I felt I wanted to do, would he have equated that correction of sorts with working, (not that I think it would have put him off working, he is pretty keen and not soft) but I wanted to send the right message, or did I handle it properly in allowing him to bring me the sheep, and end the mishap on a good note and decide to work on that little gate rushing thing another day? Had it been one of my other dogs, and not so new, Im sure Id have done what my instincts told me, but where this fella is new, and we are just learning each other, I was hesitant, and am not sure I handled it right, nor do I feel I gave him any other message than its OK to rush the gate and work without being asked to. What would you guys have done, and why?

[Chesney's Girl]

I think for me that would have been a tough one. I probably would have let him get to the sheep (if the recall was ignored) downed him on balance then called him off. Or let him bring me sheep and call him off. However, you reinforced blowing off the recall. Maybe work on him just hanging out in the field with you walking around on "just a walk" without him taking off to work sheep so that he starts to get the idea that the rules here are, you work when you're ask, other wise, just hang out with me or ignore/not work the stock.

 

Hope things continue smoothly with you guys. Just be consistent with how you would handle situations all the time with all the dogs from now on I would think would be the best, even with a new dog.

[1sheepdoggal]

Im pretty well versed in teaching a dog to just hang out and stay with me on the feild, seeing as I just spent the last 6 months with a dog that needed to learn how to be relaxed and calm while on the same feild with sheep without going nuts and working herself into a froth. ( and could easily reccomend several good novels I was able to read while doing that! ) That I have no doubt I will get the new dog to doing soon, IE staying with me until he is sent, we are just starting to approach that right now, just as you have out lined. And I agree, I probably should treat everyone equally and consistantly in so far as how I handle a situation, but then, we go back to handling each dog as an individual, and doing what works best for the individual dog. Not knowing what "works" with this one just yet I wasnt quite ready to come uncorked on him for what he did, as I would have my other dogs. I would expect I have enough time in with them that they would already know they'd screwed up as soon as they rushed that gate, and would have accepted thier correction and new why it happened. With this dog being new, and young, Im not sure how he would have interpreted my meaning or understood where he screwed up had Id gone through the sheep and stopped him gruffly. It was a hard call for me to make all in the span of a few seconds. Im wondering if it were to happen again, would it be advisable with a new young dog to treat him as I would my older dogs who know better, or let him continue to bring them, down him and call him off and make a point to start working on gate etiquette as soon as we get off the feild, or the next day at the latest. I guess what Im trying to figure out is, which choice would have been the least damaging and most easily understandable to the dog, and that sent the best message.

[Chesney's Girl]

Good luck finding your happy medium (per se) with this little guy. I bet it comes soon

[stockdogranch]

Personally, I would cut him some slack. You don't know him; he doesn't know you, really. And I would chalk it up to my mistake for trusting a dog too much when I really wasn't sure how he could handle that situation. You're right--you don't want to punish a dog for wanting to go to stock, so, now you know. I had a pup some years back who I kept thinking I could trust in a similar situation (she was about 5 months at the time). She proved me wrong again and again (I was a bit of a slow learner). Even when I thought the stock were far enough away that she wouldn't notice them, and so, wouldn't go to them, she did. Now, my dogs do not regularly wear collars. She would go to the calves, but didn't quite know enough to bring them to me (which I probably would have been Ok with, at least a few times), so I would have to run to the far end of a 20 acre pasture, lie her down, and then CARRY her all the way back! At first, I though she was a horrid dog for not listening, but soon, I realized that even though she KNEW what "that'll do" meant, she simply could not resist temptation. Her keenness was too great. Good for her--shame on me. I then just had to make sure I had her contained (tied up or whatever) until I was absolutely certain that she could control herself--took a few months for her. Don't put him in that situation again until you are SURE that he can override his instincts and listen. In other words, set him up for success.

 

A

[workindogs]

Darci

He really doesn't know your rules yet....be happy he's so eager to work. I don't think you should have punished him. Spend some time teaching about good manners at the gate, set him up to make the mistake and correct him at the gate...not when he's already made it to the livestock. If he's already made it to the sheep, then the reason for the correction may get muddled and misunderstood.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I like the compromise Robin showed me for my constant, confirmed (and still occasional ) freelancer Ted. Ask for the down, then the recall - then the first actual refusal you get you go stop the fun, then ask for the recall again.

 

If I wanted to be sure the dog knew it was okay to work, just that going and helping oneself to the stock is a no-no, I'd walk back out to where I asked for the first command that was ignored, and send the dog and work for a second.

 

Ted's a dog who makes assumptions really fast, and so was Cord (a dog I got trained to a similar level) so I'm less in the "cut them slack" camp unless it's absolutely the first couple of days.

 

But I think a trained dog would not take the above badly if the correction level was kept fair. Even Ted doesn't need a lot of screaming, just being in the right place at the right time (which is why he's currently not being trained much).

 

But, I don't think anything permanent was done - just keep an eyeball out for any evidence that bad habits might be developing and deal with it then. I had two dogs in a row that were "testers" but many dogs aren't like that. I had a pup I could trust anywhere at any time not to work unless asked. Of course, he never quite turned on the sheep, but it was true of ducks also, which he loved.

[PSmitty]

I am quite inexperienced, but Darci, I would agree with the way you handled it. If I were to ask my experienced trainer, I am sure she would say basically just what Elizabeth said. Good luck with him!

[Shoofly]

Hey Darci - Ask yourself, have you taught him to not run off to stock and does he understand that? Because if not, cracking on him (giving him a correction) for something you haven't actually taught and he hasn't actually learned, isn't fair. That said, since he's new to you, be careful about teaching him to not run off to stock - he may learn it *too* well and decide you don't want him working. I know which problem i'd prefer to have! Choose your battles but also choose your timing to wade into one.

[1sheepdoggal]

Good deal then! Thanks guys. Im now feeling like I did the right thing under the circumstances, (see Julie! I really HAVE been listening ! )

So, this week we start working on stay with me and not run out to the stock just because we are on the feild with them, and gate manners 101. Im glad I didnt get upset with him. That is progress.......for me!

[Eileen Stein]

I agree with those who said you did the right thing. If it were me, and the dog was that new to me, I wouldn't even have given him a recall command when he first ran to the sheep, because I'd have thought it was so likely in those circumstances that he wouldn't come off. I'd have worked him a little bit first to bring his excitement level down and get him taking my commands and working with me, and then called him off. The rushing-the-gate thing is an issue, but nothing you did once he was in and reached the sheep could have addressed that effectively. Better to work on it later, when you're in better command of the situation.

 

JMHO

[Amelia]

Cheers all, sounds like there was a lot of excitement going on before he ran through the gate. i wouldn't have even gotten mad at him for what he did. going foward i would, however, work on obedience with him, but not out of retaliation, and just the same as i would any pup. plus, you've only had him such a short time and he's just a puppy really that he would still be in the grace period with me. chalk it up to experience........yours and let it go.