Help! Aggressive Border Collie

[Pretzelkitty]

Hi everyone,

 

I don't post here often, but I read the board frequently. I am hoping I might get some advice on a situation I have.

 

It recently came to my attention that there was a Border Collie near my mother's house that was in need of a home because "it didn't like children". The owners of the dog have 2 small children and also run a business form their home where children come over often. So, I decided to help this dog out and told the owners that I would take him off their hands and find him a good home. I agreed to do this because I was afraid he'd end up in a shelter otherwise.

 

So I picked up the dog and he is now at my house. His problem is way more serious than he just doesn't like kids. He was growling and showing his teeth to me when we go to my house. He'd seem fine for a minute (tail wagging and ears up), and then all of a sudden he'd turn (ears back, teeth & gums showing). I wasn't trying to push him either by trying to pet him or touch him. When he showed his teeth I was about 2 or 3 feet away from him. I heard through the grapevine, after I got the dog that the previous owners basically left him outside alone most of his puppy life. I fear he was never properly socialized and was neglected by being left alone so much and as a result he has developed fear aggression. I am not an expert on dog behaviour so I could be wrong too. I am in the process of seeking a professional to help me out, I really want to give this dog a chance. I called my vet and we have an appoinment on Tuesday. The vet thought it best to give it a couple of days with the dog so I can watch his behaviour and see how he acts once he's been in my house for a bit. My vet said she'll take a look at the dog and see about refering me to the right behaviourist.

 

So, the reason I am posting here is because I am wondering if anyone can offer me some advice until Tuesday? I don't want to do the wrong thing and screw this dog up further. Is there anything I can do to maybe try to earn his trust a little while I wait to see a professional? I really don't want to just leave him locked in a room or outside, but I don't want him to bite me either. Also, I have been around dogs all my life so I am not timid when it comes to dogs, I have just never had to deal with a dog that is this messed up.

 

Thanks, and sorry for such a long post!

[Jean, Josie's Mom]

Hi,

I am also new to the boards but have been reading them since we adopted "Josie".

Josie was a rescue who had been picked up after running the streets of Savannah. She was in a dog shelter and taken in by a wonderful rescue in S.C.

We adopted her after losing our 4 year old Border Collie due to a serious chest problem.

When we got Josie home we made the mistake of treating her as the "poor girl who had a horrible life". She took full advantage and when things didn't go exactly as she wanted them to go we saw her "teeth" and heard some growls :mad: .

I had taken her to an obedience class which turned out to be a disaster because the person didn't particularly do well with border collies. She was fine with other breeds.........maybe??

Anyway, we are now in our second session with a wonderful dog behaviorist and Josie's attitude has been adjusted .

The trainer started off by telling us that we need to go with the idea that "Josie is a lucky girl to have a nice home to live in" and we need to let her know we are in charge.

We have firm rules for what we expect and Josie no longer show us her teeth or growls and is a much happier dog.

She was really out of control.....pulling when we walked her, chasing after cars...especially trucks, aggressive to other dogs, took things off the kitchen counter, to name a few things.

She was 18 months old when we got her and have had her for 6 months.

I know I've gone on and on but I wanted to get across that there is hope for dogs that have aggressive behavior problems. The key in our case was finding a person who is very knowledgable with the breed and following the advice consistantly.

[Pretzelkitty]

So how do I let him know I am in charge without getting bitten? Or should I just leave him alone until Tuesday?

[Rikki's Mom]

Hi - I'm pretty new to the Boards also, but read them extensively. I'm not a behavorist or a trainer, just a rescurer.

 

This doesn't sound like a good situation for either you or the dog and riding it out 5 more days doesn't seem like a good idea.

 

Personally, I would call your vet right now and explain you need a behavorist today. It's not going to do the dog any good to successfully bite you and in his mind he's just moved from one environment where he's locked outside, to another. There are some really awesome, knowledgeable people on these boards. Perhaps one of them knows of a behavorist in your area.

 

This is probably silly, but can you contact Jean Donaldson or Patricia B. McConnell's websites for a referral?

 

Good luck - Kathy

[mosstheboss2000]

Clearly this dog just does not trust anyone at the moment..he is giving good warning and showing inhibition by not charging in or going for a bite , if you push him chances are you may push him to bite. I would work on building the trust and bond with you.

I would keep a leash or rope (min 6 feet) on him at ALL times.. you dont want to have to grab him or panic him but you need to keep control... if you need to move him ect. then you can just pick up the end of the leash and go. Try to avoid straight on posture with your body and eyes.

I would also work on hand feeding him even if it means tossing a kibble to him to start if he wont take it from your hand, it may take a couple of days to get him to eat from you but I wouldnt just feed him freely. If you do any clicker work start to use your hand feeding to condition a word or click.. this will help will further training.

Good LUck!

Cheers

Cindy

http://www.bordercollierescueont.com

[Alaska]

Hi. I am not new to the boards

 

I suggest you do a search for posts that have the word aggression in the title. This subject has been addressed many times and there is much useful information already available. Here for instance is a recent thread that starts with almost the exact same words as yours.

 

Also, you will get far more sophisticated advice for dealing with your immediate situation if you post on the AGBEH list. The list has rather a tough love style (towards posters), but you will get solid, detailed advice from trainers who have lots of experience dealing with the full range of aggressive behaviors in a wide variety of breeds. This, I think, is what you are asking for. Join AGBEH here.

 

You're doing all the right things so far. Keep up the good work.

[Kyrasmom]

Chances are he's feeling very insecure and stressed in addition to being a badly socialized dog to begin with. One thing I always do with my new adult rescues with aggressive or nervous tendencies (on advice of a behaviorist) is to pay them as little attention as possible for the first week or so. It takes the pressure off of them of needing to react to anything I do. I take care of their basic needs, feed, walk, try not to make any long eye contact, they're basically invisible (but taken care of). Within a few days they begin to relax and the change in demeanor is very visible. I put leash and collar on very non confrontationally without even looking at them. I don't use their name unless I'm asking them to do something that I know they know how to do. Nothing new, nothing fun for me, nothing to trigger a confused response from them.

 

Obviously it's very hard to know if this will get you through Tuesday and your safety is important. If you hand feed, don't look at him, the suggestion of keeping a lead is a great one as it gives you control IF you need it. But keep everything as low key as possible. No extended cuddles even if he seems OK...give him time to decompress, and then if he's still reactive, rule out anything medical (including thyroid) and work with a behaviorist.

 

Hope to see a positive update soon!

Maria

[Pretzelkitty]

Thanks for the replies. He will eat out of my hand sometimes, and I am trying to only feed him from my hands...either directly or by tossing food on the floor in front of him. I haven't fed him from a dish yet.

 

I have joined AGBEH, I am just waiting on approval to actually get into the group. I've been doing a lot of reading online as well. I know none of this will replace real advice from a professional who meets the dog specifically, but I am hoping it'll help between now & then.

 

He seems to be very afraid of the indoors in general. He's a much happier dog when I have him outside. This really makes me believe he was left a lone outdoors a lot. He also seems to hover near my front door. I sectioned off the front door area for him. He seems the most comfortable there and it is still close to the livingroom so if he wants to he can peek his head over and see us. He can also hear all our noises too so he's not toally isolated.

 

I realyly think this guy can be saved. Sometimes I can see a good dog locked inside there and I am really going to try to bring that dog out. I know I can't keep him permanently, but I am willing to give it my all to make him a happy dog who would make someone a great pet.

 

Anyway, thanks for all the good advice, and keep it coming if there is anymore!

[KJ]

There's also Click To Calm, a YAHOO board for reactive dogs and those folks are really really helpful. It would compliment AGBEH wonderfully. I just joined myself.

 

I have a 4 yo Aussie we recued 2 years ago from the same type of situation. There are those who say there's too many 'good' dogs don't bother with the liability/risk and then of course, there's the other side that feels most dogs can be rehabed with lots of dedication, consistancy and work.

 

LOng story which I've posted about many times in various phases and crisis' so definitely do a search for aggression. There you'll find names of people that can help, books, videos and things that have worked for others.

 

Shep is much better now, but we have a long way to go. When we first got him he was so anxiety ridden he was snapping and growling at everything and there was a few bites. It takes time for them to just get situated. I heard when they finally go upside down, is when they begin to feel safe. Don't know if that's true but it took Shep about 6 months to go upside down.

 

I wouldn't judge this pup right now on his temperament. Obviously he has issues, but they may not be so severe b/c they are inflated right now.

 

There's SO SO much great help on these various boards. GO FOR IT.

 

Please keep us posted.

 

I gotta work but I'll look for my posts and various information and post again ok?

 

Hang in there. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Click_To_Calm_List/

[Pretzelkitty]

I have now had him almost 24 hours and I definitely think he can get through this. He's not a "cujo". He shows a lot of potential and I can see that he wants to join in our life, I just think he doesn't know how. I am being very patient with him, and letting him do things on his own terms. He also seems more comfortable when my other dogs are in the room. He can hear them from where he is and he gets excited and very happy when he can hear them. I am not sure if it's a good idea to let them play together just yet so I am keeping them separate for now.

 

Thanks and I will keep you guys posted on his progress.

[Tiga's_mom]

Welcome to the boards from a fellow maritimer! I hope things continue to improve for you with the new boy. I don't have any advice as I've never had to deal with such a situation, but there are some really knowledgeable people here that should be able to help you. Good luck!

[Alaska]

One thing I always do with my new adult rescues with aggressive or nervous tendencies (on advice of a behaviorist) is to pay them as little attention as possible for the first week or so.

This seems like spectacularly good advice. It's good for the dog, for all the reasons Maria gave. It's also a good reminder to the human that shaping behavior is not an instantaneous process but something you build up slowly, on whatever schedule is appropriate to the individual situation. Especially when it comes to aggression, we all want to deal with the situation immediately, but this is a perfect example of a behavior that can really only be defused over time and by relaxing, rather than increasing, the pressure on the dog.

 

Thanks for continuing to update us on Mr. Border Collie (does he have a name?). Like you, I'm expecting that he will keep you posting on a daily basis for a while as he makes great gains each day, which everyone loves to hear

[Miztiki]

Hi there! Thanks for helping this guy out.

 

I'm glad you are seeking professional help. If you're interested then I can help you until then. I'll need alot more information though.

 

How old is he? Is he neutered? And what is his name?

 

Does he have good bite inhibition? Do you know if he has bitten anyone and if so, did it leave a mark or puncture the skin? Any info on that, what led to it, if there was a growl or snarl first, etc., would be very helpful.

 

You said his ears were back when he growled at you. That's a sign of fear. Fear aggressive dogs can be somewhat unpredictable so please use caution. How good are you at reading a dog's body language? Do you know that a wagging tail can mean many things, not all of which are good?

 

Please tell me in *great* detail how he got to your house and how he reacted.

 

Also tell me about when he growled and snarled at you. Please provide every possible detail, what you and he both were doing before, during, and after the incident.

 

Your number one priority is to keep yourself safe. I would strongly recommend that you do not put him in any sort of situation where he will feel the need to "defend" himself. Any training, grooming, etc., should be put on hold until you know him better and feel safe around him.

 

It's extremely important that you establish yourself as his leader right away. Be non-confrontational about it.

 

I'd recommend that you restrict his freedom quite a bit. It sounds like you may have done that already by sectioning off the area near the front door. The purpose is to give him a place he will feel safe, but it's also to prevent potential problems. For instance, if he was given free reign and jumped up on your couch, or began chewing on something, you would want to correct that behavior. Because he's feeling so insecure, that could lead to him showing aggression.

 

He also seems unused to being inside. Too much freedom too soon could be overwhelming for him, so that's another reason.

 

Do you feel safe leashing him? If you do then that would be best for going outside to do his business. A slip lead would be easiest to put on and take off and would give you better control. Let me know if you feel safe leashing him and then I can offer some advice.

 

Try to provide a calm and stable environment for him. Are there other people in your household? If so then limit their interactions with him. You will be the main handler I'm assuming? You're number one priority, aside from keeping yourself and others safe, is to bond with him and establish yourself as leader.

 

I would continue to keep him seperate from your other dogs for the time being, until you get to know him better and build a bond with him.

 

I agree with hand feeding him. Avoid eye contact if that seems to make him afraid. Also mind your own body language. I would also encourage you to communicate with him silently. Speak with your body and eyes. You can snap your fingers or make a sound when needed but I would focus on the way you communicate with your body most since that's what dogs pay attention to more than anything else.

 

Until you get to know him better I would avoid anything that he might percieve as confrontational. If he's the type to jump up on you for attention then simply turn your back on him and ignore him. If he does it again then leave. I wouldn't play any games with him just yet either.

 

I wouldn't give him much affection at all right now. Affection is more for humans than dogs anyway. What he needs most is to feel secure in his new pack. In a pack there are followers and leaders. If a dog thinks there is no leader or that the leader is incapable of leading, then he will take on that position himself. There must be a clear and capable leader, so be sure that you establish yourself as a competent leader ASAP.

 

I can't really give much more advice until I have a better understanding of what he's like.

 

I checked the agbeh list so I could learn more about your situation but I see you're not on there yet. I'll check back again later too.

 

My Fynne is fear aggressive too. I got her almost a year ago from her original owners. She was 2 1/2 at the time and she's a Border Collie/German Shepherd mix (both parents purebreds). She was an "oops". She had no training and was unsocialized. She had no rules or boundaries and did what she wanted, when she wanted. She spent most of her time in their small back yard and literally made a figure eight path back there. She'd pace that thing for hours on end with her eyes glazed over. She was bored to death.

 

She was afraid of everything when I got her but her fear manifested itself mostly as aggression. I brought a plant home and had it out in the yard until I could put it in the ground. She went outside, saw it, and barked at it all mean like. She did this with any new thing, like a package left hanging on the gate for me.

 

She was and still is especially aggressive towards dogs. She was less aggressive towards humans but still pretty bad. She wouldn't go ballistic towards a human like she would a dog, but she would growl, snarl, bark, huff, etc., if a person just looked at her, and even if they didn't.

 

About six weeks after I got her I had a friend and his son visit from out of state for a few days. My friend and I sat outside with her. Gary (my friend) followed my instructions carefully and completely ignored her and limited his movements yet she was aggressive the entire time (growling, barking, snarling). In the house she had to be crated. She was like that the entire three or four days they were here. She would very warily approach him to sniff but the slightest movement from him, or anytime he talked, she would jump back with her tail tucked and start the growling and barking and stuff.

 

I'm happy to say that she can be around people now! She's still a bit wary the first minute or two, but then she's fine. There's a young lady I recently hired to help me in the yard and Fynne was loose inside. I invited her in and told her to ignore Fynne. We shook hands and all then headed out the door. My dogs wait for the ok to go out the door. Fynne was wary of the girl and wanted to run out the door before she was given the ok. The girl thought she would help me by grabbing Fynne's collar to hold her back. I immediately told her not to do that! Fynne did not bite her thank God. After a little while Fynne was 100% fine. She came over again today and Fynne was fine again. Fynne actually allowed a friend of my husband's to pet her recently. Not just allowed, but initiated it and enjoyed it!

 

Sorry I'm rambling. The more details I have, the more I'll be able to help you, so let me know, ok?

[Pretzelkitty]

Ok, here are as many details as I can remember, but feel free to ask me more questions if I didn't give you enough. His name is Ruben, and he is just over a year old. He belonged to someone my mother knew and knowing that I had Border Collies, these people got in touch with me hoping I could help them out. They told me that the dog just didn't like kids and they couldn't keep him. So, off I went to pick the little guy up. When I got to the house, he seemed fine. A little shy, but he did come up to me and let me pet him and he seemd happy.

 

They helped me to get him in the truck (he hadn't much experience in cars and I drive an SUV so it's higher up). He rode in the front seat with me and I spoke to him all the way to my house. He drooled a bit at first but then layed down and seemed ok. It's about a 30 minute drive.

 

I noticed the first problem when we got here. He didn't want to come inside. I finally coaxed him in with treats and soft words. He didn't even know how to climb the stairs. Once he was inside, that's when the teeth came out. He backed up and sat in my entranceway. If memory serves me, the teeth came first and there was a low growl. Honestly, he shocked me. I wasn't expecting it, so I backed off and just walked away from him. He also did when a few times when I looked directly at him (too much eye conact). I have since stopped doing that too.

 

After talking to people who knew the owners and also from what I observed, I came to the conclusion that Ruben had been left on his own most of his life. Like Fynne, he had tracks made in circles around the house, shed, and tree at his old house. From what people told me, they never saw him inside. The fact that he didn't know what to do with stairs and seemed terrified to even try. These were all first clues for me.

 

He has never bitten anyone. I also try not to encourage it, but when I do take him outside he wants to play with me. To the point where he jumps up with his paws in the air (like he's boxing) and he'll very gently grab my hand. All the while his ears are perked way up and his tail is high in the air. He is a much better dog when he is outside (which again leads me to believe he didn't spend much time inside).

 

I can generally pick up on a dog's body language. I have been around dogs all my life and I have seen many scared dogs as well as agressive dogs. My father used to work for animal control when I was younger and we had dogs come and go out of our house all the time. I am also used to using body language towards dogs as well. My youngest, Chloe is deaf so I need to communicate with her other ways than verbally. Also, I am not afraid of him. Of course I will look out for my safety, but I also have the ability not to show him fear.

 

I can also put a leash on him it seems with no problems. However, to reduce the possibility of something happening, I put the leash on him once and I have just left it on him (it's a 6 foot lead). The only thing I take him outside for is to do his business. Although he seems like he wants to play when out there, I don't just because I don't think he and I are at that stage yet.

 

He doesn't have any freedom either. He is sectioned off in the front of my house. He can go up and down the stairs or sit at the top. He can't come into the main part of the house and wander the hallway and rooms. Also, I haven't been feeding him from a dish. I have been giving him his food by tossing it to him directly from my hands.

 

There are other people here, my husband and my 11 year old stepdaughter. My stepdaughter is only here half of the time. She has also already been given strict instructions to stay away from Ruben...she has 2 other wonderful Border Collies she can play with! My husband is a bit afraid of Ruben too, so I asked him to keep a distance. I figured Ruben could sense his fear and that wouldn't help the situation.

 

He's not neutered, and he doesn't seem to be house trained either. He has made a couple of messes on the floor. The most time he's spent alone is 4 hours. I come home everyday at lunch to let my dogs out and play with them, so he should be able to hold it that long (again, another reason why I think he was left to his own as a pup). Although I am not too concerned with that right now. Where he is is tile flooring so it's easy to clean and I think I need to build some trust with him before I start the toilet training.

 

Anyway, it is really late here and I think I might be rambling so that's it for now. If I've missed anything, ask away. I really appreciate any help I can get!

[bcalaska]

One of my boys displays similair behavior when meeting people other than myself or a few close friends. I have found that he responds well when people approach him without making eye contact. He will even come up for pets, but will start the growling/lunging when a person makes eye contact. We are still working on this, but it has gotten way better as he has had more positive experiences with people.

[Miztiki]

It sounds like Ruben is in capable hands!

 

Do you have a crate for Ruben? It was helpful with Fynne for her and me both. It was her "safe" spot. She was so wound up and stressed that she didn't know what to do with herself. Her crate was her sanctuary.

 

Over time it was also where I would put her, and later send her, when she did something I didn't like.

 

Once he was inside, that's when the teeth came out. He backed up and sat in my entranceway. If memory serves me, the teeth came first and there was a low growl. Honestly, he shocked me. I wasn't expecting it, so I backed off and just walked away from him.

What were you doing when he did this? Standing, moving, interacting with him, hanging a coat on the hook, talking on the phone... Did he growl and *then* you turned to look at him? Or were you already looking at him?

 

In your other post you said you were 2-3 feet away from him. You said his ears were back and you could see his gums. You mean the gums on the side too? Or was he just exposing his front teeth? Was he standing, sitting, or lying down? When he growled and snarled, did he lean toward you or away from you? What was the position of his tail? Were his ears glued back, or kind of sideways back?

 

He also did when a few times when I looked directly at him (too much eye conact). I have since stopped doing that too.

Can you paint a picture for me here? Were you walking past his enclosure and looking at him as you walked by? Were you approaching him to take him outside? Were you trying to feed him?

 

He may percieve your direct eye contact as a threat. Perhaps you could blink, avert your gaze, turn your head, yawn, and lick your lips (all calming signals). Speaking of which, has he done any of those things? Along with that, a dog may sniff the ground as if it's suddenly so interesting or groom itself (kinda like when we pick off invisible lint when we're anxious), and maybe shake, or scratch. The sniffing and grooming are avoidance tactics.

 

If he ever looks you directly in the eyes with his ears up and forward in a non-friendly way then that would be dominance aggression. Snarling with just the front teeth exposed, with or without a growl, the tail up and maybe hackles up would be a serious escalation. All this while leaning forward or stepping forward with head down means you are about to get hurt.

 

Right now it sounds like pure fear aggression which is different, but can still result in a bite. Watch for tension, tail tucking, leaning backwards, pursing his lips, ears going back, a change in breathing pattern, feet splayed (signals flight, as opposed to up on his feet, which signals ready to fight), etc.

 

The best general advice I can give you is to read his body language and respond accordingly. Any time you are interacting with him at all, watch his body language. If he begins tensing up, let off the pressure (whatever he percieves as pressure) before it escalates into a snarl or any other signs.

 

For instance, it's good that you are feeding him by hand when possible, or tossing him his food. Say you are in the enclosure with him and you have his food. Don't toss him some when he is showing signs of fear. Sit in the room and ignore him or lightly engage him. When he is calm and relaxed with no hint of fear or anxiety, toss him some food.

 

You say he'll sometimes take it from your hand. Does he approach you warily, quickly grab it, then back away? If so then you might want to skip that part until he's to a point where you are tossing him his food because he is calm and relaxed. Little by little you can toss the food so that he's coming closer and closer, all the while completely relaxed while doing so. Then when you are putting food down on the floor and leaving your hand right next to it, you'll know he's emotionally ready to eat from your hand without anxiety. That should be a goal for you (no anxiety). Tossing him food when he's anxious is actually rewarding his anxiety. He has to be fed and let out to go potty, but try your best to do everything, each little step, only when he is calm and relaxed. If you reach for the doorknob and he's anxious, just stand there until he's calm. If you open the door a bit and he gets anxious again, wait until he's calm.

 

There are several suggestions I can give you but it really depends on your answers. I need a clearer picture of exactly what elicited his aggression towards you. I don't want to give you advice that gets you bit.

 

...but when I do take him outside he wants to play with me. To the point where he jumps up with his paws in the air (like he's boxing) and he'll very gently grab my hand. All the while his ears are perked way up and his tail is high in the air.

It's good to hear that he's gently grabbing your hand. That might mean he has good bite inhibition. It's bad that he's grabbing your hand and jumping on you though. I could be wrong, but that doesn't sound like play. He seems very insecure inside the house and that makes him anxious and fearful. Outside he seems to feel more secure and confident.

 

Tell me more about what he's like when he's outside. Does he strain on the leash at all? Are his ears up and tail up as he goes about walking and sniffing? Is it just the two of you in the yard, or are other people or dogs outside at the same time? If so, what are his reactions towards them? Does he ignore them, seem confident, afraid...? Do you interact with him at all? Say his name? If so, how does he respond? Do you try in any way to control the walk? If so, how does he respond?

 

It's very important that he has a way to release all of his anxiety. Can you run? Is your yard big enough for you to run alot? If not, is there a place nearby that is secluded (no people/animals) where you could run with him, even if it's in an empty parking lot at night?

 

It would be ideal if you could run with him (if that's safe for you to do). If not, then can you safely let him out off leash in your yard? I'd forget telling him to do anything at all (because you can't enforce it properly yet) and just let him run. If he likes balls or something then you could throw several, one at a time. This way you wouldn't have to worry about getting them back from him and learning of any other issues, like resource guarding.

 

If you're walking him in a forward motion then it will be difficult for him to jump on you. Depending on your answers, I might suggest you hold the leash away from your body as you walk so that he can't bite you, or I may suggest that you do an about face turn when he forges ahead. My suggestions all depend on your answers though.

 

Fynne is a high energy dog, even more so when I got her because she had so much pent up energy and feelings inside. I put the 50' lead on her but that wasn't enough for her. I can't run due to a bad back.

 

So, at night when all was quiet and there were the least distractions, I would let her off leash to burn off some energy. I was totally irrelevant to her at that point so I did not call her or try to control her in any way. My driveway is over 600' long and I would go to the end of the driveway and sit and quietly wait for her to remember that I existed. It took a while!

 

Eventually she remembered that I existed and came looking for me. When she did I would gently praise her and walk back towards the house until she forgot about me, then I'd sneak back to the end of the driveway again and wait. This was one small and non-confrontational way of making myself relevant to her.

 

Does the leash that you leave on him have a handle? If so then you might want to cut it off or tape it so that it can't get caught on anything. You may have done so already.

 

Much of what I've written may be things you've already thought of or are already doing. If so then I apologize. You seem to have a good understanding from what I can see in your posts. I agree that potty training can wait for now, though a crate would be quite helpful in this area too. Dogs don't generally like to soil their sleeping quarters.

 

I should have been to bed long ago! I look forward to hearing your answers and hope that this is a simple case of slight fear due to an unfamiliar environment, and that his fear towards you disappears quickly so that you can begin working with him. Bless your heart for taking him in.

[Pretzelkitty]

I do have a crate for Ruben, my oldest dog doesn't use a crate anymore so I have a spare kicking around. I tried to get him to go in it, but he didn't seem to want to so I didn't push it, so he's just barricaded in the front entrance.

 

When he first growled at me, I was standing and looking and talking to him. I wasn't moving, just standing there. I hadn't even taken my shoes and coat off yet.

 

From what I can remember, when he showed his teeth, they were only the front teeth. His eyes were opened very wide too. He was standing and he leaned back a little. The other times he did it was mostly when I went to feed him. I stand outside his enclosure to feed him. He would come up to me, looking happy so I tried to feed him from my hand. He'd take the food and then show me his teeth. Again, the front teeth and gums.

 

He never seems anxious when it's time to go outside. He does get anxious sometimes when I feed him.

 

When he is outside, he doesn't strain on the leash. His ears and tail are always up when he's sniffing around. He stays quite close to me, unless he sees a car. He has great interest in cars and I think he might be a car chaser. I haven't taken him close enough to the road to find out yet. I live sort of in the city so there are a lot of cars and some people around the neighborhood. When people walk but and he sees them, he gets excited. His ears come up and his tail wags high. He seems quite confident. Now, I have never invited any of these people to come up to him...I don't think he's ready for that. I do talk to him outside, in a nice playful voice, and he responds by acting like he wants to play with me. I take him out in my front yard. My dogs have free run of my backyard (it's fenced in). Sometimes when I am out in front and my dogs are out back, my male Griffin will bark at Ruben. Ruben will look toward the back yard and again get excited like he wants to go play with the dog. Also, when he was first here I did let him meet my girl, Chloe (maybe I shouldn't, I don't know), but they got on well. They didn't play, but Ruben was very interested in her and he seemed more confident when she was around. I haven't tried to control the walk yet. I'm not sure how the best way to go about that is yet.

 

I do run. I am actually training to run right now. I take my other dogs with me, the love it. I don't think I want to take Ruben on a regular daily run with me just yet. I'm not sure how he'll react to a sidewalk so close to moving cars. There is a field at the top of my street though that no one ever goes to. That's where I take my other dogs for playtime...throwing the balls and general play. Do you think it's ok for me to take him there, or is it too soon to start playing games and stuff with him?

 

I think I answered all the questions, keep them coming if you need more info! Thanks again for all the help!

[Pretzelkitty]

Oh, I have a couple of questions. I have been leaving him alone for the past couple of days now, just feeding him and taking him out to do his business. He seems like he's starting to come around a bit. He's getting more interested in me and what I am doing. At what point should I start trying to interact with him more? Do you think I should take him out now and try to play with him a bit? If I should start interacting more with him, what's my next step? I don't want to push him too fast.

[mosstheboss2000]

Remember fear is not rational!!!

Personally I dont focus so much on trying to analyze and rationalize it as I do working on modifying it I feel most aggression is or was initially fear based, mostly I find it is temperment and environment based. I have had MANY dogs come from homes with children like Ruben with bite histories and completely a mess . These dogs are able to function and cope normally in a adult home with some rehab!

Dogs who are fearful usually are worse inside or in closed spaces where they feel trapped.

This is probably even more so with Ruben as he is not even used to living inside.

You may find that if you set up a crate in his closed area that he may decide to use it on his own. I would be careful of this as you may then have trouble when trying to get him out.

Currently I am working with a dog with fear issues who also is more comfortable outside. She spent 2 weeks in her crate while in the house, this dog had never seen a crate I set it up and she sought a sanctuary.Since I am able to leash her(if not I would of put on a line and kept it on) I was able to reach in and hook her up and then walk . Finally once I felt she was a little more comfortable I actually needed to lock her out of the crate to work on getting her to cope in the home.

One of the first things that I teach is a hand touch. Nose to a flat hand. You can then build on this ie. hand touch, rub under the chin. ie. hand touch, rub down the back ect.. I also work this with play ie. HT , ball ie. HT, tug ect.

You can then use your hand touch to teach new behaviours. ie. side

The hand touch will give him a postive behaviour to interact with you(and later others)without having to initially tolerate pats ect and for you to get him close and learn to cope with sharing space.

PLAY is always a good thing to build a positive and rewarding bond!!! I would just be sure to control the play ie. toy on a long rope. and dog too!!

Good Luck!

Cheers

Cindy

http://www.bordercollierescueont.com

[Kyrasmom]

You've only had him a couple days, don't rush anything. Though I suppose it depends on what you mean to play...if it's wrestingling around on the ground, definitely not.

 

If it's throw a toy once or twice without any prior build up and then quitting, that cam be pretty safe. You can show him that not only are you non-threatening, but you're also fun.

 

I would just avoid getting him excited as fear can set in in an instant and you lose what you've achieved thus far.

 

Maria

[Pretzelkitty]

I meant more just taking him out and tossing the frisbee around, or maybe trying to go for a short walk or something that might be fun for him. He seems to stick by me onleash as long as I don't go too close to the road (he gets distracted by the cars). I know I am still not in a postion to play rough or put my hands on him. Right now he just sits in my entrance and I feel bad for him.

[Pretzelkitty]

Me again, sorry...I just want to make sure that I give you guys all the information I can think of and one more thing came to mind.

 

I am not sure if it's coincidence or not, but yesterday Ruben pooped on my floor and I found it when I came home. He looked at me sheepishly (as if he knew he shouldn't have done that). I didn't say anything to him, good or bad. I just went and cleaned it up then took him outside to see if he needed to go again. I went out for my run and came back about an hour later. Ruben had peed on the floor this time. I did the same thing. I just cleaned it up without saying anything to him about it. It was after that he seems to have changed just a bit. He got more interested in me and wagged his tail and perked his ears up everytime he saw me or could hear my voice.

 

I'm not sure that's a good sign or not, but I wanted to mention it in case it might mean something to someone else.

 

Also, what about our vet appointment on Tuesday? He's so afraid of everything, including going through doors that I am not sure he'll even go in the office. I don't want to force him or drag him. any suggestions on how I can get him in there?

 

You guys have been tremendously helpful so far...you have no idea how much I appreciate it!

[Kyrasmom]

I think it would be fine to play a little bit as long as you decide when to play and how to play and for how long. I would also stop if Ruben gets over-excited.

 

My behaviorist used to work with exotic cats and he said yoou could only interact for a set amount of time before their prey drive kicked in.

 

I see a level of that with my problem child, we can play for a while and then he just gets over-stimualated so I'm careful to keep that in check.

 

As for Ruben's behavior, it sounds like he's starting to settle in and simply be happy to see you, he's learning that you're non threatening and take care of him, so I would say that is good. I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that he soils unless he gets devious and knows that he will be able to see you if he creates a mess. I wouldn't really put it past a BC do be devious. LOL! But that's why we love them so much!

 

Maria

[Miztiki]

It's really important that he has an outlet for all his pent up energy. Think of it this way; some people hop in their car and go for a drive in the country, some exercise, some go to boxing class, some go up on a mountain, some just stand there and let out a good scream and cry.

 

He NEEDS a way to get all of his energy and feelings out of his system. I would strongly recommend that you take him running with you. Keep him on a short leash and just run. Don't stop and let him sniff things, don't stop for cars (unless you're crossing the street!). He wouldn't be able to react to cars if you are running with him right next to you, unless you stopped and allowed it.

 

This would be a great way for him to expel some energy and at the same time form a bond with you. Please consider this route. If he can run next to you for an hour then he will be a much more relaxed dog, and then any interactions with him would be SO much easier.

 

It's good that you have a spare crate, even if he doesn't know what it is. If he's a fearful dog then it will be an issue in many instances for a long time to come. The crate could provide a safe place for him as you expand his world. If I were you, I would set it up in his enclosure and put some of his food in it, then leave him alone. He'll eventually go in on his own to get it and realize that the crate is a nice place to be.

 

When feeding him, I have a suggestion. Instead of standing outside of the enclosure and possibly facing him and talking to him, try sitting with your body turned slightly away from him so that you can see him out of the corner of your eye. Read a book or magazine or watch tv while you're sitting there and as soon as you see him really relax, toss him some food.

 

Within a few days you should be able to enter his enclosure, wait, toss food, then enter, sit down, wait, toss food, then toss it closer to you, so on and so forth, until the food is on the floor right next to your upturned hand. Just make sure he's not showing any signs of tension. Baby steps. From there you can feed him from your hand. If you decide to use the crate then reserve some food for in there.

 

You handled the potty accidents very well! His reaction is probably not a coincidence either.

 

If it were me then I would not take him to the vet. I probably wouldn't take him to a behaviorist either. That's just me though. If and when you take him to the vet, arrange to bring him into the back door and directly into the exam room. From there I would leave it up to your vet on how to handle him or not. Some vets are not experienced with very fear aggressive dogs, some are. I had to muzzle Fynne when I took her to the vet, get her on the scale, on the exam table, hold her during the exam, etc. Fynne growled at my vet as soon as she directed her attention to her and said, "Well hello!". My vet wasn't too comfortable handling her and the vet techs didn't have a clue. I had to tell them to go away when I was trying to get her on the scale. They all crowded around and tried to lure her with treats or tell her in a commanding voice. Fynne was overwhelmed and was getting more and more anxious and less cooperative.

 

The reason I don't suggest that you play with him now is twofold. One, who knows what will set him off? Smiling at him (and showing your teeth) could do it. Bending down to get a ball, or flinging your arm to throw it could do it. Who knows? You and/or the behaviorist would be better able to judge that.

 

The other is that play is not a priority for a dog. I would focus more on his immediate needs - exercise, establishing yourself as leader, bonding with him, etc.

 

You asked when you should start interacting with him. You already are. Any time you approach him inside with food, you are interacting with him. Every time you take him outside you are interacting with him. Make the most of those times. I can't explain over the internet how to build on that.

 

Fynne never showed aggression towards me because I never gave her a reason to. I had to measure the length of her nose so I could order a muzzle. It took me 20 minutes to do that. I sat on the floor and waited for her to approach me, then I slowly pet her, then I brought the tape measure near her. The next 18 minutes were spent getting her ok with me putting the tape measure next to her nose. I could have rushed it or forced it which I'm sure would have elicited an aggressive response from her. See what I mean?

 

She loved her new raw diet but was very uncomfortable with me being around. I'd close her off in the computer room with me and just sit here on the boards while she ate. Step by step, as she relaxed, I would get up and leave the room, then get something that was somewhat near her, then sit a ways from her, then sit closer, the touch her back end, then further up, then her head, etc.

 

She had been handled by her previous owners, somewhat, but it took time for me to be able to look at her teeth/ears/eyes, or clip her nails, or physically restrain her.

 

All of these things and many, many more helped us to build a bond, for me to gain her trust, and to establish myself as her leader. I couldn't really play with her for a while because she would get so excited and want to jump all over me or sometimes snap at my face.

 

Some day I'll learn to say what I want without writing a book! In summary, give him an outlet for his pent up energy and feelings, read his body language and respond accordingly, and make the most of any interaction with him. The goal in any interaction is to get him calm and relaxed so that he learns to trust you. You're also establishing yourself as his leader in each interaction as long as you control the outcome. If it's time to feed him then he gets no food until he's calm and relaxed. Don't just toss it to him if he's not.