Getting a dogs mind in the right place

[1sheepdoggal]

I have a little dog, that is a nice talented little girl, she is very responsive and works nicely. Right now, she is Id say what would be considered a well started dog. The problem Im having is getting this gals mind right when she knows we're heading on the feild to work. She gets all amped up and all she see's is sheep. Ive been working with her, trying to get her to focus on me, and she does to an extent, looks at me, looks at sheep, looks at me, looks at sheep. As my feild is relativly small, just 2 1/2 acres, she can plainly see where the sheep are even before we get to the gate, so she has no reson to "look" for the sheep. So I am interested in hearing how you all would work with a situation like this, to get your dog more handler focused. Seems the only thing she is focused on me for is waiting for me to send her, and is jumpy as heck, just waiting for the send off. I have also been working with her to get her to walk with me to the post. She will run up 10 feet and return to me, run up 10 feet and return to me. Ive been using my stock stick, placeing it in front of her to stop her from going beyond the stick, and she seems to be respecting that, but without constant reminders, IE using the stick, she would be right back at it. I guess I could put a leash on her but she is a bit sensitive to leash corrections, so I am trying to avoid that. We have been doing reccomended walks in the feild, without working, Ive been sitting down in the pasture with her just chilling, no working, no sheep contact, and she does good for these things, but she still just gets so amped up the second she realizes we are actually going to train. I sure would be interested in hearing discussion from others that may have such reactive little dogs like this and what you are doing, have done to curb this over enthusiasm.

[Shoofly]

Is she a good listener, does she take downs well? Is she hard or soft natured? Strong eye or loose eyed? There's an awful lot of variables to consider in trying to deal with this problem and a quick internet answer could actually do more harm than good. It really depends on what's causing the problem and there are lots of things that can do that.

[1sheepdoggal]

Yes, she is a very good listener, she takes a down right off, Id have to say, if this makes sense, that off sheep, she is relitivly soft, but on sheep, you can do what ever you want to her and it wont put her off the stock. She has a nice amount of eye, not loose by any means but not a real strong eye either, this is Chris, dont know if Julie has talked with you about her or not, but she has been working with her, and we have been in the round pen at her place, and Chris does pretty well managing her enthusiasm in the round pen, its the longer walk on the bigger feild when she sems to loose her control. I dont have a round pen here, but feel that she should be able to control herself and exhibit the proper behavior whether it be on a feild or round pen. I think more than anything, that this is her nature to be excietable, and that I have allowed this behavior since she never breaks until I send her. It is only recently that I can see ( it has been brought to my attention ) that a change is in order, in order for her to approach her work in a more sane and workman like attitude. She works well with a handler, and whoever is handling is always for her apart of the equation, she wants to and trys very hard to do the right thing, its just getting her to settle her mind a bit more so she is not so balls to the walls getting out there that Id like to see change.

[Shoofly]

I don't think i can really give good advice without seeing her, there's just too many reasons for her to be acting like that. One thing you can try to keep in mind though that might help - make sure you're not rewarding wound up, over the top, no-brain-out-there attitude by giving her the sheep when she's in that frame of mind. Only give her the sheep when she's calm and relaxed. I think you probably realize that though and that's why you're asking how to get her in the right frame of mind.

[1sheepdoggal]

Yes, I realize that. I can walk with her on and off the feild 10 or twenty times, and once she realizes that we're not going to work, she behaves, its when she knows that I am really going to use her that she looses her brain. So it seems that the exercises Ive been doing work well, as long as we arent actually going to work, and she resigns herself to that and does just fine, its like she knows we;re not really going to work, and that this is just an exercise. Perhaps when we are just out there doing the exercise's, and she is in that nice calm mode, I should just surprise her and send her then? I wonder though, if by doing that, that it might just make her really never know when Im going to send her and put her in a perpetual state of mindlessness.

[juliepoudrier]

Darci,

There's one way to find out! It may have the opposite effect, sort of like the random treating that positive trainers use. In that case, I don't think the dog ever comes to expect the treat, since it never knows for sure it's going to get one, right? The one thing I can imagine is that if you just up and decide to send her on random occasions there won't be any anticipation on your part, with the attendent stress or nervousness that she might pick up on. But of course that would mean that you go about your business always with no plan to send her and then if the mood suddenly strikes you, you send her (that's the only way to make sure that your emotions/attitudes aren't playing any part in her reactions).

 

Robin,

These will just be some random thoughts and observations and speculations about Chris. When I work Chris, I walk her out to the field, paddock, or round pen on a leash so that I can control what she does rather closely. If you just walk out with her, even if she's paying attention to you, the second you take your mind off her (say, to close a gate or speak to someone) she will take off for the sheep. The problem with her doing this is that if it's allowed, then at least IME she will also buzz the sheep and perhaps make a grab at one. If I walk her out on a line to where I want to work her and demand her attention the whole time, then she seems to reset that "SHEEP!SHEEP!SHEEP!SHEEP!" attitude and will start out with a nicer work attitude as well.

 

The reason I have been working her exclusively in small areas (or in larger areas but doing a lot of work up against the fence to make a smaller space so to speak) is because according to Darci, Chris had developed a habit of pulling sheep down and doing some serious damage to them. This never happened in large areas because Chris could work way off the sheep (out of contact I would say), but as long as she wasn't close to them she couldn't do any serious damage so it was allowed.

 

So my goal was to get her working in close to sheep and doing so calmly so that her default was to slow down and think rather than blindly try to take down and destroy when in tight, high-pressure situations.

 

My feeling is that her "take 'em down" attitude is almost entirely fear based (although maybe there's an excitability element in there too). Darci, understandably, was getting very upset with her when she'd do this, which of course added to the pressure Chris was feeling and ultimately exacerbating the problem. Perhaps when the bad things were happening, although Chris may have started out with that behavior out of fear, Darci's somewhat frantic response (after all, sheep were being taken down) added an excitability element to the whole thing as well?

 

In close-in work I have just been very matter-of-fact and calm with her over her behavior. I have no history with her, so there's been no expectation of taking sheep down when we go to work, so perhaps no stress from me for Chris to pick up on at the start. (As in, perhaps Darci is feeling some stress and nervousness, which is in turn getting Chris amped up? Although she starts out a bit overexcited when I take her out, I can pretty quickly get her mind back on me and in thinking mode.) Aside from the first time I had her in the round pen, she hasn't damaged any sheep and she really is taking a much calmer approach to being up close and personal with them. That doesn't mean she doesn't backslide on occasion, but her default has definitely been reset (at least when working with me) to something much less than "take down and destroy." Darci said she's experienced the same thing at home, although she really doesn't have tight places to work, but that at least even in a larger area Chris is more inclined to be in contact with the sheep when working them.

 

The last time she was here, I upped the pressure on her a bit by having her drive the sheep toward the fence and then flank around and head them as they reached the fence. She was a little more nervous about the situation, but still generally maintained her cool.

 

So that's what I've been doing with her. Because of Darci's description of her approach to work, in which Darci mentioned that she wouldn't actually go get the sheep till told but that she was obviously becoming overexcited and anticipating being sent, I sort of looked at it as an extension or another manifestation of nervousness/excitement over sheep and suggested to Darci that she just take Chris out into the field and get her to calm down by doing other stuff (sit and read a book or whatever). Darci doesn't have access to someplace where she can create a packed pen, but I think that would go a long way toward teaching Chris to remain calmer in the presence of sheep when not actually working them.

 

As for sensitivity, Chris will give to me. It may take a correction or two as we're going through the gate, but in general she will look to me and not take off after the sheep, nor does she act as if she's overly excited by them (once corrected for it). I've never had to get on her really hard--she pretty much responds to a "Hey!" or "What did I tell you?" sort of correction. I may have to step into her on occasion, but pretty much she doesn't require any sort of over the top correction to get her attention.

 

I don't know if any of this helps. But part of what needs to go on here is a resetting of the relationship between Chris and Darci. I know Darci is working hard on that, especially on the learning to trust her dog again part (that is, that she can take Chris when she's working close to sheep and not worry about sheep being hurt). I think what Darci is asking now is perhaps how to get Chris more attuned to her as they go out to work.

 

It's hard to describe, but all of my dogs range ahead and are enthusiastic about the prospect of going to gather some sheep. But none of them get the "OhmyGod!OhmyGod!OhmyGod!" franticness that Chris seems to exhibit. Again, it may be that whole of the experience between Darci and Chris has created this overexcitement (that they have sort of fed on each other over time) and now Darci is having to try and reset that to another default.

 

Chris has a good sense of balance and a moderate amount of eye. You know the kind of dog I like to work with, and the relatively few times I've worked Chris I have liked her style, so I would say she works more like my dogs than not (well, except for the "pull 'em down" thing. Oh, well excepting Pip this past weekend!).

 

Anyway, those are my impressions and experiences with Chris, FWIW.

 

Darci,

Feel free to elaborate on or correct anything I've said here.

 

J.

[1sheepdoggal]

I think what Darci is asking now is perhaps how to get Chris more attuned to her as they go out to work.

 

Yes, ya hit the nail on the head. She works "with" me fine once we are on the feild after the initial send, its as we go out to work that I encounter the frantic behavior, and I dont like to send her while she is in that frame of mind.

 

Darci,

Feel free to elaborate on or correct anything I've said here

 

No need, I think you have described it much better than I could have. Its always better to have some one that is not so close to the situation, and doesnt have a biased mind to to see where things are going wrong, and understand what they are seeing in order to be able to better put things in perspective. Thank you.

[Shoofly]

Hey - I'll take some time to process all of this and put up a longer reply after chores and feeding but, there's an article on my blog about corrections that might help. One thing to think about is correcting the heat/tension out of her rather than correcting her and it causing more tension or heat. But i mean correcting in terms of changing her behavior, not a punitive kind of correction. Check out the article and see if that makes sense.

[juliepoudrier]

One thing to think about is correcting the heat/tension out of her rather than correcting her and it causing more tension or heat.

Robin,

That's it exactly, and it's why I think the dynamic that has been established between Darci and Chris is a big part of the problem. I can correct Chris for getting tense/excited when going to sheep and get her attention right back on me, and she's calm, but I don't take her out there worrying about what she might do and I think she does pick up on my attitude and settle because I am settled (that zen thing, you know). I think the history between Darci and Chris, especially because of the horrible things she (Chris) was doing to sheep, has set up a tension feedback loop (for lack of a better term) between the two of them. The end result is that they feed off each others' tension, even when on the surface one might not say there's any obvious tension or stress there.

 

As an example, one time I was working Chris and she was doing a lovely job. Then she tried to take a cheap shot. I corrected her but immediately let her get back to work. Darci was on the outside of the pen and said something to me, and I could just hear the anger in her voice. She wasn't getting louder or anything like that, and doG knows I'm not always the most observant person, but I could just feel the anger and tension coming across to us in the pen. I stopped and asked her why she was getting angry when I myself was not and I was the one dealing with the misbehavior. Darci's response was that it upset her to see Chris working so well and knowing that she could work well and yet she still had to go and take that cheap shot. Correct me if I'm wrong Darci, but I think a big part of Darci's reaction was disappointment at what she saw as simply bad behavior in a dog that had shown it could do the work properly. I pointed out that what we're trying to do is reset her deault from "take 'em down" to slow down and think in high-pressure situations but that even when any of us tries to reset our behavior patterns we often fall back into the old patterns in times of stress and so she could expect that Chris at times of high stress would likely fall back to the old default, despite the creation of a new default. The trick, IMO, is to know it's possible and be ready to step in and give a correction (get her back into thinking mode) *before* the actual problem occurs--that is, to be proactive always. I noted that had Darci been in there working Chris, her whole tone, body language, vibe, whatever probably would have just set Chris off even worse, whereas because I didn't have that history with Chris, I could correct without emotion, and then go right back to work, no harm no foul, and the sheep none the worse for wear.

 

So I think perhaps the larger question is how to get a human and dog back together in a calm and stress free manner when both have started off on a very bad note, over a period of some time, and which continued to escalate to the point where the human no longer really wanted to even work with the dog--a complete and unequivocal lack of trust--for fear of the bad things that might happen to sheep as a result. I believe that Darci is seeing Chris' ramp up in excitement on the way to go work sheep as evidence that she's thinking about getting out of hand and so wants the approach from the start to be a calmer, more thoughtful one.

 

J.

[Shoofly]

Okay, this is probably going to end up a bit "stream of consciousness" but you guys gave me a lot and i think there are numerous ways to go about this. You'll have to sift through and decide what to try.

 

First, you say

Yes, ya hit the nail on the head. She works "with" me fine once we are on the feild after the initial send, its as we go out to work that I encounter the frantic behavior, and I dont like to send her while she is in that frame of mind.

so...don't send her. Find some way, some how to get her relaxed before you let her go. Pet her with nice long strokes down her body, fuss at her, threaten to take away her favorite toys, stand there for an hour until she lays down out of boredom, whatever you think will work. As soon as the desperation leaves her, send her. If she explodes on the first 5 steps, lie her down and tell her to settle down, send her from there (don't call her back to you, move forward yourself to set it up again - important!) and if she explodes again, lie her down again. Rinse and repeat. DO NOT allow her to have the sheep if she's in frantic, desperation mode. Stop her if you can and re-send. If you can't stop her, meet her at the sheep and explain that wild dogs don't get time with your sheep. And while you're doing all of this, practice your quiet meditation because it's imperative that you completely take the adrenaline out of yourself as well. You get hot, she'll get hot.

 

Now the reason i say i'd rather see the dog in person is that some dogs are not going to take this well. A softer, less enthusiastic dog might decide all those stops mean you just don't want her to work at all. Some dogs, if you take that desperate flying about stuff away, you might find there's nothing left. Some dogs need their attitude dealt with before they take one step to go around, others you let get up and then deal with it. There's a ton of variables and doggy mind reading to be done because there are tons of reasons why dogs will or won't act this way.

 

As for the taking off at gates and such business, i'd keep a 3-4 foot light cord on her and just work her with it on. Just drop it when she's relaxed and where you want her to be, and send her. Don't let her drag you around, insist on a loose lead. Either that or wear your running shoes and beat her to the sheep when she takes off. Since it's gotten to be a habit, i'd try the cord.

[Shoofly]

So I think perhaps the larger question is how to get a human and dog back together in a calm and stress free manner when both have started off on a very bad note, over a period of some time, and which continued to escalate to the point where the human no longer really wanted to even work with the dog for fear of the bad things that might happen to sheep as a result.

 

J.

 

I think maybe you've answered the question right there. The human half of the equation has to decide to change and control him or herself. How can we expect the dog to behave and control herself if we can't even manage our *own* emotions?

 

One more thing to think about - i think Darci started out using the phrase "handler focus". That's really like fingernails on a chalkboard for me. It's not about focusing on the handler when walking out to sheep. It's about having a proper working attitude period. If the dog isn't giving "handler focus", it's more like the dog is disrespecting the handler and maybe that pisses the handler off. It's more personal somehow. On the other hand, if you're trying to get a proper working attitude from the dog, it's less personal and insulting. I'm not sure that makes sense?

[juliepoudrier]

One more thing to think about - i think Darci started out using the phrase "handler focus". That's really like fingernails on a chalkboard for me. It's not about focusing on the handler when walking out to sheep. It's about having a proper working attitude period. If the dog isn't giving "handler focus", it's more like the dog is disrespecting the handler and maybe that pisses the handler off. It's more personal somehow. On the other hand, if you're trying to get a proper working attitude from the dog, it's less personal and insulting. I'm not sure that makes sense?

Yep, that's it. I have to say that Darci is doing a lot better in this regard, but I think she does take it rather personally when Chris does something "bad" or wrong and this comes through clearly in her interactions with Chris. And if I can see it, then you know the dog is picking it up even stronger than I am. This may be because Darci comes from a more controlling background (obedience and schutzhund?), but it's probably better for Darci to answer that one.

 

Darci, where are you? It's weird talking about you in third person!

 

J.

[1sheepdoggal]

Here I is!

Yes, Julie was working the dog, and things were going so nicely, and I saw great improvemnets. I was so proud. I saw that she understood the job and was carrying out the work so beautifully, and then, when all was zen, she just reached out and took a cheap shot. I said "Ahhht! Sh*t!" I just couldnt understand why she did that, and was so dissapointed that she'd done it. It did tick me off to see her pull that, when there really was no reason to. In my mind.

Robin, I think you said a mouthful when you said that I take it personally. I think your right, that I do. To me it is direct disobedience, when Im pretty sure she knows that gripping isnt acceptable. God knows, this dog and I have been over it time and time again. You start to tear into sheep, You get a verbal correction and we quit working. Had it been me in there with her, I could have blamed the cheap shot on myself, perhaps being in the wrong place, putting to much pressure on the dog, or asking her to do some thing that she just wasnt ready for, or any number of excuses I could have found, but that wasnt the case, and I think thats what had me upset more than anything. And yes, Id like to see a proper working attitude. That is a much better way of putting it than saying Handler focus. She could be a tremendous little working dog, if she would just get her head screwed on straight. Because she burns up so much energy just getting on the feild, that we have little time to work before she is needing a break. I wish I could remember when she actually started doing her sheep eating ways. She didnt use to. If I could remember, I could probably tell you how it all started, but I think Julie is spot on with how it all has ended up. So, we are at this point, where I will now work with her at home, and my sheep arent suffering at all, and she has been doing well. Im feeling pretty good about the work we are doing and am happy with the dog. Ive done pretty good at leaving the worry on the outside of the pasture, and am going in with a very positive attitude, because really she hasnt nailed a sheep in a good while, so she is proving to me that she is worthy of the trust, and I am showing her that I can/do/will trust her. Granted, she is working close to being off contact but I am getting her to come in more and more each time we work, and that is going well. She actually has been able to pick sheep up off the fence and out of corners and doesnt revert back to her sheep eating mode. That simple act of me putting her in that type of position/situation speaks volumes to her progress, and of my new found trust in her, as 3 months ago, Id have never put her in a position to have the opportunity to maul another sheep and getting sheep out of corners was a prime time that she would do that. . That, is a great improvment on her part and a testament to what Julie has been able to acchomplish with her if youd ever seen her before Julie started working with her. So what is going on, is pretty much what Julie has been able to articulate much better than I, and we are improving each time we work. But Im still not able to get her in a less than frantic state while we are simply getting ready to go out on the pasture, or once we get out there before I send her. My attitude is calm and workman like, but getting her's there has been a struggle. Once I send her, and she has control of the sheep, she is a dream to work with and the franticness is replaced with a good working attitude, its the state of mind she developes before the send that I would like to see improve. Perhaps its just going to take more time, and I am becoming impatient.

[Shoofly]

franticness is replaced with a good working attitude, its the state of mind she developes before the send that I would like to see improve. Perhaps its just going to take more time, and I am becoming impatient.

 

I put some suggestions above that you can pick through and try. Just don't let her act like that.

[1sheepdoggal]

Thank you Robin, and Julie. Besides what we have discussed here, I also, will go back and re-read your training reccomendations on corrections on your blog. Maybe if theres time when/if (vet bills kickin me right now, so we'll see) I can get up to ypur place next month, we can get her in the packed pen as I havent been able to utilize that yet, and it may be just what she needs to get this under control. Until then, we'll see what we can accomplish with the suggestions you have supplied us with.

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

I would like to thank Darci, Julie, and Robin for their very candid discussion in this thread. The comments from all have been very comprehensive, and the evaluation of both Chris and Darci has been very detailed without being judgmental. Great job, ladies!

 

Very much like Chris, my first working sheepdog had the tendency to be very "hot" at times (well, most of the time). After trying several different strategies to help her overcome this, I finally realized that the solution was to never let her go to sheep unless she had the correct attitude. This worked wonders for her, and when she realized that SHE was in control of when she got to work, the franticness went away. My comment to her was, "You may not work sheep until you settle down", then the ball was in her court to either change her attitude or not get to work. Early on, our training session often ended with, "I'm sorry, but you can't work sheep now", and we left the field. This had a tremendous impact on her, and it wasn't long before we no longer needed to leave the field without working.

 

Good luck with Chris, Darci. You are indeed fortunate to have Robin and Julie to assist you in helping her be the best sheepdog she can be.

 

Regards to all,

nancy

[Debbie Meier]

I go back to making sure my dogs mind is with me when I'm not on the sheep, Riley is getting retuned on that now and I have to remember to maintain it with her, she does not self maintain, like Jake does. I have set up an expectation that she stays in contact with me at all times when I am out choring, she is one to go and see what the cat is doing, go up and tease the puppies, go watch the chickens and ducks, nothing damaging just doing her own thing. I fight with the same thing with her when we work, doing her own thing rather then what I want her to do, I discovered that when we are wrestling over control is when she ends up blowing up the sheep, so, I'm not playing that game anymore and she either gives me the controls or we don't work. I'm even requireing that she stays in view of me in the house, going into the bedroom or sleeping on the porch don't cut it, if I go into the leather shop she needs to make the initiative to come find me and plant herself in a place that she can see me. I've already noticed a big change in her with her recall, she used to saunter to me and I had to call her again and again to get her to step it up, now I can hear her start a little slow but then she accelerates on her own rather then waiting for me to make a correction. This morning I used her to take sheep out to pasture, she was a different dog, she made mistakes but she was not blatently refusing to factor me in as she was a couple of days ago. IMO, by making her accountable off stock is making a big difference on stock.

 

Also, I discovered that until I can get them to stop on their outrun I can't correct them when they are incorrect, at the trial Wednesday Jake decided to lift early and to the set out, I was able to redirect him get him to the top but he was pissy about it, ticked that I would not let him lock his sheep up, he slammed into his lift, I lied him down and made him wait, luckily it was an arena trial and the sheep settled back together, when he stopped leaning into the sheep and looked to me for direction I then commanded him into a fetch. The rest of the course went great, I think that if I had tried to negotiate the way he was handling the sheep with him we would have had wreak after wreak, since I let him know that I was not going to negotiate and took his sheep away with the lie down he decided to fall in and take direction. I don't know if the same thing would work with all dogs, with Jake I have him working right on the contact zone around the sheep and cattle, lying him down and not letting him maintain that contact is punishment to him, I can take his sheep away pretty easily just by not letting him maintain control of his sheep. In order to get to that point though I had to be sure that I did not take him off contact when he is right, which can be tricky.

 

Deb

[Shoofly]

Thank you Robin, and Julie. Besides what we have discussed here, I also, will go back and re-read your training reccomendations on corrections on your blog. Maybe if theres time when/if (vet bills kickin me right now, so we'll see) I can get up to ypur place next month, we can get her in the packed pen as I havent been able to utilize that yet, and it may be just what she needs to get this under control. Until then, we'll see what we can accomplish with the suggestions you have supplied us with.

 

I can sure sympathize on the vet bills! Come on over sometime, maybe we can trade some dog grooming for a lesson. Of course i don't have running water at the farm so you'd have to wash dogs in the pond.

 

The packed pen is a great exercise but probably won't address what you're talking about in this thread. I bet we could find a way to fix it or deal with it in about 10 minutes though. It's just one stage in a dog's training.

[Laurae]

I bet we could find a way to fix it or deal with it in about 10 minutes though. It's just one stage in a dog's training.

 

This is the difference between novice handlers and those with more experience. As the dogs go through different phases of their learning, experienced handlers can spot a problem and deal with it quickly. Novice handlers may not react in the most effective ways, often exacerbating the problem, and letting the dog practice inappropriate behavior long enough for it to become a habit. I let it happen with my dog in many ways, from his slicy outrun (other dogs in his lines have naturally nice outruns) to his hesitation (should have been a teeny blip but it's now become a default reaction when he is unsure). Darci, you're very fortunate to have Julie and Robin helping you!

[Shoofly]

This is the difference between novice handlers and those with more experience. As the dogs go through different phases of their learning, experienced handlers can spot a problem and deal with it quickly. Novice handlers may not react in the most effective ways, often exacerbating the problem, and letting the dog practice inappropriate behavior long enough for it to become a habit.

 

That's true but it's usually more about training the person than the dog anyway. If i can get a handler to stop letting the dog have the sheep when he's being a jerk and wound up like a top (the dog that is ), the dog will stop acting that way because he's not getting his reward for it. The real trick is getting the handler to be consistent about it and i think that's the biggest difference in a novice trainer versus a more experienced one. The dogs are simple, with only one motivation - getting the sheep. If you control access to the reward, the dog will do his best to figure out how to get you to give it to him. The person, on the other hand, has ALL kinds of thoughts and motivations and emotions and such going on. If we can be more dog-like and let all that go, and only focus on the one thing (say, not letting the dog work until we see the attitude we want), we train better. I'm not sure that makes sense either, it's hard to explain sometimes.

[Laurae]

Robin, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Not that it's the dog, but that it's the handler, and what s/he can do to influence the dog. Novices often lack confidence to follow through, see things too late, and reward (or correct) more than we intend to. I think Darci is lucky to have the input of more experienced folks helping, but ultimately it is Darci who will have the biggest influence on her dog's development

 

That's true but it's usually more about training the person than the dog anyway. If i can get a handler to stop letting the dog have the sheep when he's being a jerk and wound up like a top (the dog that is ), the dog will stop acting that way because he's not getting his reward for it. The real trick is getting the handler to be consistent about it and i think that's the biggest difference in a novice trainer versus a more experienced one. The dogs are simple, with only one motivation - getting the sheep. If you control access to the reward, the dog will do his best to figure out how to get you to give it to him. The person, on the other hand, has ALL kinds of thoughts and motivations and emotions and such going on. If we can be more dog-like and let all that go, and only focus on the one thing (say, not letting the dog work until we see the attitude we want), we train better. I'm not sure that makes sense either, it's hard to explain sometimes.

[ShoresDog]

This thread is very interesting and useful. Thank you Darci for starting it! Next week I'll be back in California, and I'm quite expecting to be confronting the same problem with Juno. She has a strong tendency to get amped up in anticipation of something enjoyable, and the more aroused she is, the less brain she has.

 

I find it to be very hard to step back from that emotional connection with the dog and what the dog does or doesn't do. Robin says is so well --

The person, on the other hand, has ALL kinds of thoughts and motivations and emotions and such going on. If we can be more dog-like and let all that go, and only focus on the one thing (say, not letting the dog work until we see the attitude we want), we train better.

I heard a quote a while back that stuck with me, something like "Why let it bother you? It's only behavior." Maybe from Karen Pryor? Not sure. Anyhow, turns out that thought helps me detach. Not that I couldn't stand to improve greatly in that regard!

 

Thanks again, NC and MD gals!

[Shoofly]

I really think dogs are selfish little creatures and only act out of self interested motivations (gimme those sheep!). If you can keep that in mind and not treat them like little humans with human emotions and motivations, it gets a lot more simple to figure out the why that goes with the what. And if you can accept that, you can take some of your own emotions out of the picture because your dog is acting like a dog, and he can't change that any more than he can change from being black and white.

[1sheepdoggal]

I can sure sympathize on the vet bills! Come on over sometime, maybe we can trade some dog grooming for a lesson. Of course i don't have running water at the farm so you'd have to wash dogs in the pond.

 

The packed pen is a great exercise but probably won't address what you're talking about in this thread. I bet we could find a way to fix it or deal with it in about 10 minutes though. It's just one stage in a dog's training.

 

 

Yep, I knew it. I figured It was only going to be a matter of time before ya saw Farliegh's Lion Tail, and Becca's Little Zi, and pretty soon you too would be wantin your puppers to be sportin' that cool puffy lions tail too!

You know me, I'll always be happy to work out a trade Robin. Thank you for the opportunity to do that with ya. Julie has about convinced me to go ahead and enter Chris in your trial next month, either in N/N or maybe even just go non compete. It would be a good experience for us both. In the mean time Im going to continue to work with her in getting her/we to realize she/we need to reconfigure to a more proper mind set on the approach. And who knows, if things dont go as pretty as Id hope they do, and I need to temper myself some, your dogs can show me the way to the pond and we'll kill two birds with one stone!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Julie has about convinced me to go ahead and enter Chris in your trial next month, either in N/N or maybe even just go non compete.

 

I'm hoping to work at Robin's this Sunday and depending on how it goes I may just do an "outrun and retire" with Ted in PN (since it's a casual trial for a cause, I figure no one will be annoyed at my wasting their time).

 

Zhi's "do" totally rocked but she's all fuzzy again. I think I've got an idea. You should come up to Robin's if you've got time and I'll chip in gas money PLUS pay for the groom. Robin can eyeball Chris and give you some homework so you have the confidence to enter the trial next month! I highly recommend Robin's homework. Ted can too. He gets to work a lot more now that he's a sensible boy.