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Those of you who had trouble with downs/stops..


kelpiegirl
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Have you ever fully stopped that issue? I mean, have you ever had an epiphany by the dog, created by you, or your trainer, that in no uncertain terms down means down (or stop means stop)? What do you suppose causes this problem? Could it be the start of the dog, by an novice trainer? The sheep he/she started on? The style of the dog, or what? I find myself again, at halted progress because I need this from my dog, at certain times or it all falls to heck in a handbasket.

Does the relationship off the sheep factor in here? Anyway, I know there are folks here who have loads of many dog experience in training them on sheep, so I thought maybe I, and others who have this problem (please let it not be only me!!!) could gain some insight.

 

Thanks

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Any or all of the above? Twist doesn't have a great stop, largely because she has right much eye and so I never really put a stop on her (didn't really need one), and when I decided I might need one later, then I had to work against all the time that had gone by when I didn't require a stop from her. Now when I tell her "lie down" in my "I mean it" tone, she pretty much "flings" herself down as if to make it clear to me that she's doing it only because I insist. :rolleyes:

 

Sheep can certainly influence a dog's willingness to stop, as can the dog's basic personality or working style. A young, keen dog might be more willing to stop as it matures. If you are starting a youngster on less than cooperative, flighty sheep, you can expect that getting a stop is going to be difficult. I guess what I'm saying is that there are a lot of factors that could influence it, and whether I get insistent depends entirely on the situation (inc. sheep) and the dog.

 

J.

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I work hard on stop, lie down and stand. I expect a full and complete response every time but it does not always work that way. I think you can work on this all you like but circumstances can often dictate what you get. My most experienced dog responds extremely well but I believe it is also part of his personality and work ethic if you will to inject some of his own creativity. What I mean is that if I ask for a stop or lie down what happens with the sheep can sometimes dictate how the dog takes the command. If the sheep continue to move often he will decide that his stop or lie down should be here, or there, or over here, or just a little to the left more. Why did you want me to lie down right here if the sheep are going that way. If you can picture what I mean. He will take the command quickly but sometimes decide how and when to apply it. He seems to anticipate his next move. I watch closely that he remains on command. In his goose work he tends to take his commands and apply them promptly but he is working a different creature for a different result and I have very strongly stressed that he take his commands. In goose work I know what you mean by needing the dog to take the command or it falls apart. To answer your question, I think it is all of the factors mentioned but I do lean toward the dog being somewhat creative. I also think how and when a dog takes his commands depends on how he sees his balance point and in this regard I can help him. I have spent quite a lot of time working on how, when and where to apply a command and what I am doing at the time I give the command. Give us an example of what you mean. I tend to see my work with my dogs in pictures and look back at the snap shots to analyze.

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I agree with what others have said in that it really depends on the dog, the stock, etc., etc. A dog like Riddle who reads her stock really well and adjusts accordingly, I almost never use a stop on. Alli, one of her daughters, I am forever riding the brakes with--fetching, driving, doesn't matter. But what I think you're asking is for a dog who has had an issue with a lie down all along--one who knows it darn well, but chooses to not necessarily use it all the time when asked. Or one who will take it right away, but pop up immediately, before you ask it up. My gut feeling on this is that the reliable stop (right now, every time, and hold it till I ask for something else) goes back to the foundation training (of course, doesn't everything?). If the lie down wasn't enforced all the time in the beginning, once the dog knew for sure what lie down meant, I think that can set up a problem for later on. But I also think that it has to do with not teaching a dog to properly feel its stock early on, too. If the dog is feeling its stock, and reading them right, then the dog will kind of automatically self-regulate, and the down won't need to be used so much. Anyway, I think you're asking if the dog with this iffy lie down (all along) can ever be "fixed." I think if you go back to basics, do some work in the round pen so that the dog can get a really good feel for its stock, that can help. I also have a friend who works with her students' dogs fairly regularly on what she calls "lie down boot camp." Just asking for the down in lots of situations and making sure it is enforced every time. That's kind of the Bobby Dalziel method, too. I am not sure of the long-term effects of these methods, however. I would suppose if one is consistent enough...

 

A

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But I also think that it has to do with not teaching a dog to properly feel its stock early on, too. If the dog is feeling its stock, and reading them right, then the dog will kind of automatically self-regulate, and the down won't need to be used so much. Anyway, I think you're asking if the dog with this iffy lie down (all along) can ever be "fixed." I think if you go back to basics, do some work in the round pen so that the dog can get a really good feel for its stock, that can help

 

 

That is KEY IMHO. And I've just found this out, with training my 2nd dog. Spending a lot of time working on balance etc...I found that really does help with a down/stop, and like you said when the dog is reading the sheep, they do seem to self regulate, and actually all I have to do most of the time is just a quiet hey to get a check up. I went back to basics on my other dog, that I did have a problem with taking a down, and now the same thing, just a simple ahh or hey and she stops, no fighting no big production over a lie down, makes things a whole lot better IMHO.

 

Betty

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Thanks everyone. I think part of it has to do with starting her on sheep who always run past the person working her. This just verified to her to be ready to head. So, she is always ready to move at a moment. I think it also factored into her fetch issues. When sheep are calmer, her fetch is 100% better- she will take downs, etc. but, when they run, she I guess harkens back to the old tricks of how they run past you. So, we are dealing with her being driven to control the otherwise not controlled sheep. I do need some boot camp, but I also think the idea of back in a small area, and downing where it feels good, will reinforce that down will not result in loss of control- that's a great idea. As to if it will ever be totally fixed- I guess the jury is still out, but we will try :D

ETA I have seen improvement with her when I am say, going to pen, or driving with her. She seems to get the idea, that I need her to listen, or we have a wreck. On the fetch though, that's our biggest problem. What worked with that, is getting to the sheep almost before she did and reminding her to be mindful. So, back to that. Back to zero tolerance, which always worked, it's just hard because I am a tolerant trainer :rolleyes:

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I think many dogs have a "default" behavior, one that they got into a habit of early on. They may learn to do differently, but when things get stressful, like at a trial, or the stock aren't very cooperative, or whatever, the dog goes back to that default mode. I guess the trick is to try to get the new behavior cemented as well as possible, and then, in those stressful situations, see it coming and do what you can to stop it right then and there,

A

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This is just my novice two cents, but something that I have discovered here recently. As a novice trainer/handler I think the biggest mistake we make is sending our young dogs after our dogbroke sheep that automatically come running back to you, and usually running at the speed of heat. You could have sent your dog 300 yards and he may have gotten the sheep back to you, but chances are it was purely accidental. Your dog wasn't in control or working the sheep, he was following or maybe even chasing...consequently I make sure I never work that way anymore. What I do now is switch up, one day I'll work a group of 10 head or so, and with a mix of sheep that might be a little heavy, the dog has to slow down, and think or they lose their sheep. I also have a couple of sheep in the mix that are from another farm, so they sometimes split off from my sheep, and the dog has to figure out how to cover those as well. I also of course will work a lighter group of 3 or 4 and if I'm having her fetch them, most of the time I make sure the sheep can't see me, or what also seems to work is she'll have to bring me the sheep through a paddock area that has some obstacles in it, water troughs, mounting block etc... makes the sheep slow down or try to duck out sometimes, and it forces her to slow down and think and cover. So far doing it this way has worked out really well. Shes much more savvy now on her sheep even at a distance, (heck she's turned into a gathering fool ; -) and her weak side (on the come bye) has all but disappeared, on its own. I think there is an article on littlehats about keeping a small group of sheep fresh. I think the gal even suggested putting out obstacles like tarps, or having to go through water, things like that to slow your sheep down. You might read that one, had some really good ideas in it, very helpful.

 

Betty

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Thanks everyone for the comments. Lots to learn here. Our male is like that; always wanting to think for himself and he definitely doesn't like the down command. The trainer is currently working on stop. We have had about a month off so hope he will be better on Wednesday. I'll have to reread this topic a lot and work on the commands near my wild sheep to see what happens. He isn't ready to work them yet. N

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Something that happens at every. single. clinic with Jack Knox is that he'll take may dog, that I think is stopping great (stop giggling Robin), and when the sheep get to his feet, start flanking left, stop, HEY stop, left stop HEY stop, right, stop HEY stop, right, stop, walk on, etc and I'll think to myself, gee, my dog stops great at home, what's wrong?

 

But the key is, as several people have said, that if your sheep just sort of run to where they usually go anyway, your dog may either get in the habit of stopping or, conversely, NOT stopping, because what's the point? the flipping exercise takes the running sheep out of the equation. It's pretty intense though and isn't for everyday practice.

 

Robin does the flippy stop thing too. She can probably explain it all better. She also told me, "Get your head so that every time you see your dog walk through/run through a stop, it makes your teeth hurt." Or something like that. That helped a lot. At least, my teeth hurt a lot now whereas before I lived in a state of blissful ignorance.

 

For that I agree with returning to a round pen or very small paddock. I'm turning into a stickler for making sure my dog is feeling completely in control when in a learning situation. If I reduce all the environmental factors to the lowest common denominator, then my dog won't feel tempted to reduce his working behaviors to the lowest common denominator!

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