Weaves

[pammyd]

A friend lent us some weave poles a few months ago

As Ben is still young I havent been drilling him on them - just 3 or 4 goes up and down a couple of times a week at most

 

I have been using a kinda vesrion of the weave dance where the hand lures and the legs zig zag across and make the dog go the right way

 

After about a month I was able to stop luring and move away from the weaves just moving my hand in and out to give him the idea

and last week a fab breaktrhough - I directed him with my arm into the entrance for the waeve and he did all 6 poles himself (and had a big puppy grin on his face)

I have to point him to the right side for his 1st pole but after that he is OK (smart wee chap)

 

at his agility class (just started - for young dogs) she has had us doing channels - which I am happy about because I think that will help

Ben has really got the hang and will canter all 12 poles no problem with me behind or infront

 

But last week she also wanted us to start with the poles closed too - so the dogs get used to that

Her method is we hold the dogs coller and guide them through the poles - she does not want a hand or leg position that might look like a signal to the dog

 

I have never heard or read about leading a dog through the weaves? does anyone use that method?? and what is wrong with a signal that can be (and is being) faded out over time?

She does not like us to lure our dogs for anything - and things have been OK for most things (hmm well thats because he has already met the obsticals and been lured over them before) but I can keep him on the lead for them - for the weaves the only way to do it her way is to hold the coller - and Ben really does NOT like me leading him with his hand on coller - he thinks I am telling him off

Anyone got any ideas why leading/dragging a dog is better than luring??

[Root Beer]

No - I never lead/drag a dog through the weaves. I have seen it done, though.

 

I've used a combination of luring, weave wires, 2 by 2's, and free shaping. I like all of those methods.

[dogsofmenace]

Personally, I don't like guiding or luring. But I know that any method can potentially work, it just depends on the dog. It seems like Ben is doing really well with the method you're using so I don't think you should confuse him by doing something completely different as well, especially if it makes him nervous. I would always stick with what seems best for you and your dog, regardless of what someone tells you to do. And I don't think there is anything wrong with a hand signal to send your dog into the correct pole. Its hard for most dogs to find the entrance with being guided to it. Just let your instructor know that you'd rather not guide him like that and that you've been teaching him with a different method. She should understand, as not every handler and dog are alike and have to be taught things in the same way! Good luck with him.

[berocca]

Id start by simply saying that you are teaching him a different way and you don't want to confuse him. I do it all the time with my instructor at one club as an experienced instructor from my other club has a BC same age as Delta so we are training them together using fairly new methods. I actually avoid the seesaw as I know it would set her back if I let her do it while we are still halfway through teaching it another way. I also avoided doing weaves at training as there was no way I could have done them the same way I was training them at home. Most trainers will understand.

 

As for actually teaching the weaves I have done it 3 different ways for 3 different dogs. I have just had to find what works best for each dog. I would never teach them the way you have though (not meaning to offend) as I do not want my dogs to be paying any attention to what I am doing, I want them to focus entirely on the weaving. I see experienced handlers around here who still have to give hand flicks to their dogs sometimes as the dog has not truly learnt what weaving is and they take minor cues from their handlers. Even when you don't realise that they are.

 

Cody was taught the weaves by using the channel. It worked well for him but neither of my current dogs really took to that method with much success.

 

I taught Delta to weave by shaping the weaving behaviour. I used 40cm poles so that she had to keep her head down to see them. I didn't want a dog that would be looking around while they weaved, keeping the head down increases their speed also. She isn't toy driven enough to put a toy at the end so I used a "manners minder" at the end. Basically it is a treat dispensing machine that is controlled via a remote control. I pressed the button as she went through the last gap and the beep acted in the same way as a click, she would then run to the machine for her treat. I liked that it basically took me out of the equation. She knew that I had something to do with it, but it was the machine that gave the food so that is where she looked. I started off with 2 poles for her to go through, when she went through those reliably from wherever I was standing I added a third pole. By about 4 or 5 poles she had it sussed out and I added the last ones pretty quickly. I put her on a full set about a week ago and she flew through them like she had been doing them for years instead of only a week.

 

Charlie is being taught with "V poles" as he just has no idea when it comes to shaping, all he wants is the tennis ball So I have adapted the V pole (angled poles but still in a line) technique to include a tennis ball throw as he goes through the final pole. I have been gradually reducing the angle so that hopefully he will have them vertical soon. Im actually thinking of changing him to a 2 x 2 method though. I get the feeling he hasn't really worked the whole thing out yet, he is just running through so that I throw it without thinking about what he is actually doing. He doesn't actually do agility at the moment so Im not really in any rush with him.

[berocca]

Oh, and yes I have seen some instructors getting their students to lead a dog through the weaves. They use short poles so that they leads don't get tangled. I personally don't see how that would work in the long run. Sure the dog might weave nicely 99% of the time but you can guarantee if they haven't actually worked out what they are doing then they will mess up when you least want them too Im a big believer in making sure the dog realises exactly what they are doing. The best way for any dog (or human for that matter) to learn is for them to have to work it out themselves. Let them experiment to see what will get them a reward. After they try everything again and go back to that behaviour, earning them another reward, they will start to work it out.

 

Its the same with times tables (as an example). As a teacher I see kids every day who can recite their times tables, tell you the answer immediately. But ask them what times tables actually means or get them to use them in a practical sense and they have no idea. While its great to be able to say what 9 x 5 is, if you cant tell me immediately how many players there would be in a 5 team competition of 9 a side football then its a useless skill.

[pammyd]

Cheers guys

Yup I know luring is prob not the best way to teach somehting which is why I am happy at the club to be using the channel too

I just wondered if there was any thinking behind why it is better to lead rather than lure - I would say both ways you are not making the dog think - both ways he is relying on you

 

Like the idea of trying to make him think now tho - will try that for the entrances - now he gets the idea that he goes in and wiggles down to the end I will not give him signals but just click when he goes in the correct side and start again when he does it the wrong way

I am pretty new at the free shaping and making them think for themselves but I really love when you see the little gears working in the head

When I was trying to free shape him to run up to a big target, hit it with both paws and lie down facing front it was soo sweet and funny

watching him run up and slam both paws on it - then look at me 'this worked last time' then jump onto it again, then scratch the target, stop, look at me, whine, bark think, lie down 'click' ' ahhh was that all you wanted?' took 2 5 min goes from when he 1st saw the target to running over and lieing on it every time (and then the next week trying to stop him lying on antything put down on the floor)

 

That was the plan for the A frame contacts and stuff - cos she wants a 4 off lie down - only problem is we just dont have enough time in class to backchain that so he realised what to do at the end of the A frame- she has us grabbing the coller and telling and forcing them down at the end!! ho hum - really wish I had my own equipment and a climate that wasnt rain every day

[Root Beer]

I like shaping weaves, but it is easy to accidentally shape the behavior so that the dog ends up weaving two poles and will stop to look at you, weave stop to look, etc.

 

What I've found to be helpful is to use the weaves I made and start with just two poles and shape an entry, but I always deliver the treat by tossing it ahead of the dog. Once the dog can do the entry, I add the third pole, and then later the fourth.

 

I found with Maddie that once she was weaving four poles, she could weave six (and 12 at class!).

 

I will say that at the same time, she was doing poles with wires at class sometimes, so at some point both training methods probably clicked in her brain and she could weave.

[berocca]

Slightly off topic but if you are going to stick with the 4 on the floor method for contacts it doesn't actually require much work with the obstacle itself. I am in the middle of teaching it to Delta at the moment. Basically I got her to the point where she would run to her mat and lie on it every time. Then I put it about 6 feet from the end of the A Frame. Id give her the "Hup" command then as she went over the apex I gave her the "Floor it" command. She would run down the contact and straight to her "floor". Then I just started putting it closer and closer to the end of the contact until she was having to drop as soon as she hit the grass. Took about 5 or 6 goes for her to get to that point. Now Im working on cutting edges off her mat so that I can fade it away.

[haleigh]

I only like the guiding method so the dog weaves perfectly with ACCURACY, rather then speed. Sure, it's not a perfect 1-step, and they're still bending, but I think this helps with the entry..etc. Thats when I bust out the handy-dandy channels and start working on speed. With speed comes 1 or 2 stepping, so I never really concern myself with that.

 

In training, we work on different body signals for weaves, so when your trainer is suggesting you should do that...well, it has me quite confuzzled. You never get a lot of speed out of a weave while you're pushing and pulling your dog in. What we did was taught "In" for get closer and "Out" for get farther with the weaves. I did it differently, because Joy knows Out instead of drop it. So I would tell her "Weave" (go away) "In" (towards me) "weave" "in" "weave" "in". I have found great success with this. I've faded out the commands to a single "weave", but they REALLY come in handy when you see your dog starting to duck, or remind her not to duck on problem spots.

 

The trainer tried using guide wires with Joy...now that was a laugh! Joy jumped over the guide wires and played tuggy with them