Making and Asking

[juliepoudrier]

Perhaps in a previous life I was a despot....

LOL! I think it's just a habit we all develop somewhere along the way and then have a helluva time breaking once we see the light. (And of course in times of stress and panic, we slip back into our default mode, which is the old "make 'em do it"....)

 

J.

[painted_ponies]

Imagine the disaster if I had let him run through the gates into sheep totally out of control! I would be fighting that mindset for the entire training time.

 

Well, maybe not.

 

The reason Violet was off leash leaving the round pen was Jack's fussing at me for giving her a leash correction as she pulled at the leash in anticipation of entering the pen. He said it would've been better to release her, let her have the chance to enter and work her sheep correctly, and save the correction until/if she rushed in out of control.

 

Which is exactly what Vi and the unsecured gate gave us the opportunity to do. She rushed in out of control and causing havoc, Jack corrected her for it and gave her the chance to do it right a few times. And she did. Acted like a proper little lady on the way back out, too.

[gail]

Just my opinion, but I really don't think that what Becca was doing was "wrong". There is a time to make a dog right and there is a time to allow them to be right on their own. The art of training is knowing the difference and when to progress from making them right to allowing the dog to choose the appropriate or desired behavior. Becca probably needed to make Ted right at some point, she just needed to trust him enough to make the right choice at some point and didn't.

 

Like with Bill and Fern. Fern does not sound like she is ready to choose. So, I would be preventing the "wheeeeeeeee" or making the dog be right until she grows up a bit.

 

I think that when you are training to always make the dog right, it is too easy to start nagging the dog. And nagging is probably the worst thing that a trainer can do & it teaches all kinds of bad habits.

 

gail

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I think that's where "asking" comes in. I in no way believe I should be looking for the Whole Enchilada each time and nagging until I get it - that is actually closer to my problem mindset.

 

Jack says, "Look for answers." Sometimes it might be an unexpected one - it's about assuming that I don't know for sure what's going on in my dog's mind, but I shouldn't worry about that either. I look for answers in what he does when I give him freedom. Teddy is ready to grow up and learn some self control, and he will get a lot more from working when he's committed to that.

 

I don't think any way is wrong or right necessarily as long as it's not involving abuse. But I do think it's important to stay consistent along the way once one has chosen a path, or switch over carefully if a new direction is chosen. That's one reason I included an example of his work with Robin. Jack started him one year ago exactly. Then we went to Robin and she continued with the same general philosophy with us. Then my own work with Ted took this odd turn.

 

And you have to take individual personalities into account. Being "made" doesn't suit Ted's personality at all. He likes to be on the team and doesn't like feeling left out. He much prefers to work through what you want from him.

[painted_ponies]

I've signed up to go again in April - we'll see whether I can get my head together before then!

 

Where are you going in April? Is there another clinic?

[bcnewe2]

There is a time to make a dog right and there is a time to allow them to be right on their own. The art of training is knowing the difference and when to progress from making them right to allowing the dog to choose the appropriate or desired behavior.

 

Couldn't agree more. But I think if you want a dog to feel sheep then you have to teach with the mindset of asking first. What you ask all depends on the dog and where it's at in training. I would make a young pup learn how to walk on a leash, then ask him to do it without. But I tend to fall back on "crutches" easily. So if a leash is a tool I have to use it then let it go. Otherwise I get caught up in making with a crutch all the time.

 

Another example....Mick is by all rights finished, not in open yet but knows all that he needs to do to be there. He has some corner issues. So...I could put him in a corner and make him do what I want or I could put him in the corner and ask him to do what I want. It's his choice, but how will he learn why unless he learns what doesn't work first. What worked for us was not yelling or correcting him when he couldn't, but helping feel what he needed to feel. I guess when I fist attacked this after exhausting all the other ways I tried by "making" or correcting him the tough and upsetting thing. I took him softly and guided him in so he could feel what he needed. Then I knew he had felt what was right. So the next time I set it up I asked. His first choice had him sticky then busting, but because he had been allowed to feel what was right I saw his light bulb come on and he was able to do it the next time I asked. I had used up all the "Make him" I had and it didn't work. He'd still get uncomfortable and do what I said but then he'd bust in frustration. So there's my take on asking and using the sheep to help a dog feel what is right.

Now there is that time that I will correct a dog for doing what he knows wrongly but I still say, correct for the wrong, then ask for the right instead of make. It's such a fine difference it's hard to explain. Unless your Jack.

 

Like Becca's Ted and I suspect most dogs, making them never lets the trust build between the 2. Asking and giving room for compliance makes way more since to the dog or at least to mine. Plus he isn't a dog that has an ounce of quit in him. He just becomes harder or grippier with his non ability to understand why I'm saying do it my way because I said. Now he can trust there's a reason and is eager to try my way, but again, he'll still make wrong choices and I'll keep correcting then asking again.

 

I was making Dew walk to the sheep on a leash because she wasn’t listening to me “tell” her not to. Now my mind set is to ask, if she doesn’t, correct, then ask again. She’s got it. I’m sure we’ll be testing this for a little while. To make it easier on this young dog, I had to put Mick up so that she kept her brain on instead of losing it watching him do it differently than I was asking her. But making her do it on leash took away all her responsibility. Yes, lead a young pup to sheep but for how long? For Mick, he’s old, it’d be obedience if I decided to “make” him do it differently. But that’s a habit I let create it’s self. So I ask him to do the things that matter and let this one slide, just wasn’t going to let it slide with the young pup.

Kristen

 

Man, that was long and not very clear. You almost have to go to a Jack or Kathy clinic to get the fine details of this particular training technique. I’m sure there are lots of others out there doing it but I only know of J & K doing clinics on it. In fact I’m pretty sure that lots of people train in this way but don’t use the same words to explain it.

 

Kristen

[Sue R]

And of course in times of stress and panic, we slip back into our default mode, which is the old "make 'em do it"....

 

You talking to me here, Julie? One of my biggest problems is that I seem to slip into stress and panic right off the get-go, especially in a clinic or other "in front of people" situation. Very, very bad handler!

 

I've signed up to go again in April

 

Becca - I assume you are talking about Skip and Tina's clinic? See you there! That was one clinic where I felt a little less embarassed than usual.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I was really pleased with your progress last year! I'm looking forward to seeing everyone again - I haven't been up since last year, unfortunately. Thankfully it seems we are getting the health stuff worked out this spring, yay!

[Pipedream Farm]

Becca, I think BJ and Ted need to meet. I think they have a lot in common. Of course maybe we don't want them exchanging ideas! Actually BJ's not bad about calling off or freelancing, but she's about as tightly wound as any dog I've ever seen. She really wants to please --it's just that her excitement level gets the better of her. She's extremely reactive to the slightest change in balance the sheep make. I think sometimes she knows what the sheep are going to do before they even do --that would be great if she didn't do everything ninety miles an hour! I end up working her really long sessions being slow, boring and methodical to settle her mind. I have to say she can get the better of me in terms of making her lie down too much. I can't help it, when a freight train is coming at you, self-preservation becomes instinctual!

Renee

[stockdogranch]

I think BJ and Ted need to meet

 

Gee--I have one like that, too, Alli, who will be 2 in late April. While she is my breeding, she was sold as a pup, started elsewhere, and totally encouraged to do everything at 100 mph. Her idea of a flank is to flank until she encounters the first body part she comes to (on sheep or cattle, she is not particular), bite really hard, then go zooming off again. No thinking, just lots of going somewhere in a big hurry. Anyway, I've had her back since June, and had been MAKING her go very slowly, and lying her down when I saw the hit coming. She was doing it OK; I could MAKE her look pretty good, in fact. But I was wondering when she'd start to do it on her OWN. After Jack was here last month, she is a DIFFERENT DOG! She is now learning to use her brain and feel her stock, without me MAKING it happen, and I am convinced that she will really become an exceptionally good 'un. Without his input and help, I could have made her look good, but it was a total fight the whole way, and she would have ended up one of those dogs you ride the brakes with all the time. Now, she's a pleasure to work. Thanks, Jack!

A

[kelpiegirl]

Anna

How were you able to slow her down?

 

Gee--I have one like that, too, Alli, who will be 2 in late April. While she is my breeding, she was sold as a pup, started elsewhere, and totally encouraged to do everything at 100 mph. Her idea of a flank is to flank until she encounters the first body part she comes to (on sheep or cattle, she is not particular), bite really hard, then go zooming off again. No thinking, just lots of going somewhere in a big hurry. Anyway, I've had her back since June, and had been MAKING her go very slowly, and lying her down when I saw the hit coming. She was doing it OK; I could MAKE her look pretty good, in fact. But I was wondering when she'd start to do it on her OWN. After Jack was here last month, she is a DIFFERENT DOG! She is now learning to use her brain and feel her stock, without me MAKING it happen, and I am convinced that she will really become an exceptionally good 'un. Without his input and help, I could have made her look good, but it was a total fight the whole way, and she would have ended up one of those dogs you ride the brakes with all the time. Now, she's a pleasure to work. Thanks, Jack!

A

[L and M Ranch]

Actually BJ's not bad about calling off or freelancing, but she's about as tightly wound as any dog I've ever seen. She really wants to please --it's just that her excitement level gets the better of her. She's extremely reactive to the slightest change in balance the sheep make. I think sometimes she knows what the sheep are going to do before they even do --that would be great if she didn't do everything ninety miles an hour!

 

My young dog, Uno, is quite similiar to this. Actually I've worked quite a few dogs just like you're describing Renee. One of the things I do with all of my dogs, but I'm finding to be very helpful with Uno (thanks to a friend reminding me), is to have them lay down and just stay while I work the sheep myself. I start this off in a smaller area so I can have some control of the situation. If they get up I correct them and ask for a down again. Then go back to working the sheep and watching them out of the corner of my eye. Of course it depends on the dog but I'll do this for 15 - 30 min or until I see them completely relax. Then I ask them very quietly for a walk up. I have found this gets her mind right right away and our whole work session can be productive then. She's pacing better from the get go instead of having to use a down every couple of steps. I'm not sure it would be a great thing to try with a strong eyed dog but I haven't seen one that has this same issue anyway.

[kelpiegirl]

Laura

This sounds like it would be a good thing to do with my girl- and makes a ton of sense.

 

My young dog, Uno, is quite similiar to this. Actually I've worked quite a few dogs just like you're describing Renee. One of the things I do with all of my dogs, but I'm finding to be very helpful with Uno (thanks to a friend reminding me), is to have them lay down and just stay while I work the sheep myself. I start this off in a smaller area so I can have some control of the situation. If they get up I correct them and ask for a down again. Then go back to working the sheep and watching them out of the corner of my eye. Of course it depends on the dog but I'll do this for 15 - 30 min or until I see them completely relax. Then I ask them very quietly for a walk up. I have found this gets her mind right right away and our whole work session can be productive then. She's pacing better from the get go instead of having to use a down every couple of steps. I'm not sure it would be a great thing to try with a strong eyed dog but I haven't seen one that has this same issue anyway.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I can't help it, when a freight train is coming at you, self-preservation becomes instinctual!

 

I can't tell you how much better this makes me feel! I had a notion just looking at BJ that she and Ted had a lot in common. I hope we can meet soon!

 

I figured out today how to verbalize to myself, what exactly was jacking up the tension. The next step is to put it into practice. I realized that if I got in Ted's way and didn't give him a chance to do something, either right or wrong, what was Ted supposed to do exactly? I'm too worried about "giving him the sheep" at the wrong time. Mostly because I work with sheep that are less than ideal for training, in a large space. This week I went back to the round pen to simplify things and that has helped a lot. I am more confident in just correcting once, starting over, and not nagging, and I think Ted's trust is increasing again. We'll see when I try to go back out to the larger paddock at Robin's.

[stockdogranch]

How were you able to slow her down?

 

Well, when I first got her back, I would just use the lie down a LOT. If she got up faster than I wanted (a walk), I laid her down immediately. I also discovered I could not do this on sheep--they just flew away from her too quickly. So we followed the calves around the pasture for MILES doing this. However, even though she learned to walk behind them, she was still not thinking and feeling her stock, so that she could walk by herself and not be MADE to. I was still forcing the issue. Jack showed up for the clinic just in the nick of time. We took her back to the round pen, and it was small enough that she HAD to feel her stock, and probably knew enough at that time to not run them over me in such a small area. Plus, her method of approach was always a mad dash--race in, hit 'em hard, then get out of Dodge at a run, so when in close proximity, she kind of HAD to slow down. After just a time or two in the round pen, she knew what it felt like to feel her stock, and we have progressed to the bigger arena and on to the open field. She now can work ANY AND ALL SHEEP in whatever combinations I sort out in the open. She now knows what it's like to feel her stock--how she puts pressure on them, whereas before she never stayed in "the zone" long enough to do that. When I was forcing her to walk, she was in the right place, but because she wasn't using her mind and really feeling the stock, she was just doing as she was made, and resisting it the whole time. As Becca's title to the thread says, it's such a subtle difference that makes a whole world of difference!

A

[Pipedream Farm]

I actually think BJ's light bulb started to come on yesterday. I worked her in our run in shed with a small group which I think helped her a lot. Then we brought them out and did, lots of wearing (something I normally can't do with her --we usually just end up driving) with me moving really slowly. we probably worked about 40 minutes. She does better with long sessions. I normally only work young dogs about 5-10 minutes at a time --but that just doesn't work well with her. Then I took her back out a few hours later and decided she could sort her own group. She doesn't have reliable flanks for sorting, but I figured she could just park it while I sorted the sheep at a gate. I had to stop periodically and tell her to get back, but she seemed to be getting what I wanted. Anyhow, we did outruns and really slow wearing again. I'd grump at her when she started speeding up and I'd tell her take time. She actually started getting it. By the end of our session (probably another 40 minutes) she actually had "gears" and was acting like a real dog (I knew it was in there somewhere!). It was really nice to see her bringing the sheep at a controlled pace. I think it occurred to her for the first time that she was the cause of the sheep being unsettled. She and I were both wiped in the evening yesterday! Hopefully things will keep going like this because her stamina is way better than mine!

Renee

[Shoofly]

That sounds really great Renee!

[Sue R]

Renee - I'm just so happy to hear that!

[Pipedream Farm]

That sounds really great Renee!

 

Well I have to get her somewhat under control for next month! Don't want her to look too shabby next to Moss, Mae, and her bro Ted! You do realize she's never worked anyone else's sheep before? Nervous yet?

Renee

[Shoofly]

Well I have to get her somewhat under control for next month! Don't want her to look too shabby next to Moss, Mae, and her bro Ted! You do realize she's never worked anyone else's sheep before? Nervous yet?

Renee

 

No problem there, my sheep are professionals!

[Sue R]

Whatever is next month? Am I missing something?