GoldenKiwi Posted December 30, 2007 Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 Hi everyone, I was wondering if its possible for a 2yo dog who has a tendancy to chase horses especially when you are working them to stop doing it with correct training. This dog has been left and never really trained to do anything. I had him for a month and he was fantastic, he came a long really well (I didnt have horses then). I was retraining him for his owners. I took him back and showed them how to work with him. They have now decided they dont want him anymore and want to give him to us. I want to finish his training, but I think the horses is going to be our biggest challenge. He just gets so focussed on them. If he does come right with work we may keep him, otherwise we just have to rehome him. We were not intending to get a dog, my horse tends to be agressive to dogs that show her attention. I dont want Jasper getting hurt. Can this be fixed? He is the first BC I have trained, everything else has been easy to train but this is very instinctual to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted December 30, 2007 Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 was retraining him for his owners. Re-training him from what to what? want to finish his training Didnt you do that when you re-trained him the first time? I was wondering if its possible for a 2yo dog who has a tendancy to chase horses especially when you are working them to stop doing it with correct training Why isnt he locked up when your working horses? I dont want Jasper getting hurt Did you teach him what no, and get out means when you trained him the first time? They have now decided they dont want him anymore and want to give him to us. Is this the same dog that has to stay on a mat because your not permitted by your land lord to have dogs? If he does come right with work we may keep him, otherwise we just have to rehome him. We were not intending to get a dog My thoughts about this dog, is that he has been through enough recently, and needs a proper trainer, that is knowledgable about the breed, and is willing to keep the dog, and work through the problems, has the experience to judge wether the dog has any talent or natural abilities, and can train him if he does, to do stockwork. You keep talking about training, but have yet to say what it is your training him to do. Are you just training Basic Obedience? Stock work? Behavioral problems? I may be wrong here, but your postings about this dog, now, and prior ones, suggest that you have limited experience in training, and none with Border Collies at all. If you really want to do right by the dog, place him with a knowledgable trainer who works with stockdogs, or some one who does some type of sport with BC's. Let him settle in some where and quit mucking about with him. Give him some peace of mind. Enjoy your horses, and place the dog properly. He deserves it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenKiwi Posted December 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 I wasnt training him anything special, just basic obedience. I trained him to sit, stay, come, walk on a lead, wait, wait quietly around chickens, I took him out in public, built his confidence.... Generally taught him to be a dog that can be enjoyed in a family instead of hold them to ransom. I channelled his energy and didnt lock him up all the time. He became a very happy dog and was a pleasure to have. We did let him in in the end (just dont tell the landlord). The owners didnt keep it up, and he gets himself into trouble and just gets tyed up all day- no life for a BC. The owners will just go back to tying him up and leaving him. As he was when I took him on. He knew nothing and was a very miserable dog. I dont like the out of sight out of mind mentality. Thats not a way for a dog to live. I want to rehome him, and I will if he doesnt fit with us. He was coming along so well and was absolutely easy to have around, but now we have horses too. How exactly do you train your dog 'get out'?? I cant imagine the process I taught Jasper to lie down and wait while we handled, fed or let out the chickens, and presumably I would do the same with the horses. If you have any useful suggestions or an opinion as to wheather this dog can be reconditioned towards horses feel free to reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted December 30, 2007 Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 I may be wrong here, but your postings about this dog, now, and prior ones, suggest that you have limited experience in training, and none with Border Collies at all. If you really want to do right by the dog, place him with a knowledgable trainer who works with stockdogs, or some one who does some type of sport with BC's. This statement seems a bit harsh to me. I'm glad no one told me I should get rid of my BC who had a whole set of issues issues because I had no experience with the breed. We all started somewhere. To the OP Horses can be a life and death issue for a dog. One well placed kick and the dog doesn't stand a chance at surviving. I would kennel him out of sight of the horses when you are working with them. When you are working with Jasper I would not allow him to eye the horses at all. It is a self rewarding behavior. Keep him far away and teach him to focus on you. Use toys or yummy treats depending on his motivation. Start teaching him a rock solid recall. Practice it often. Keep it fun and motivational, but don't give him an opportunity not to come when you call him. Play with and train him in sight of the horese but far enough away that you can redirect his attention to you if he is wanting to pay attention to them. Teach him a "that'll do" or "leave it" command. Use it (after he understands what it menas) when he starts to eye the horses and correct him if he doesn't "leave it". If my BC had started chasing horses I would also set up a situation where he'd try to chase the horses and I could strongly correct him for doing so. Probably with a long line and a wide flat collar. Most of the time positive training is best, but as chasing horses can have serious results it calls for drastic measures. His desire to chases horses comes from the strong prey dive that most BCs have. Given his way my 3 y/o would prefer to chase sheep, cats, chickens all day. He's a dog, it's exciting and self-rewarding. But I supervise him when loose (thus not giving him the opportunity). And I've taught him that "leave it" means just that or the wrath of the boss comes down upon you. The result is a dog who accompany me around the farm enjoying his time to be out and about with me without harassing the other animals here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticFox Posted December 30, 2007 Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 Agreed, `our` dogs have to learn somehow. I was very concerned the first time Rosie saw a horse, being only a puppy I wanted her to get used to seeing them without herding. Luckly the horse that was loose in the park at the time was good natured and ignored my dog. My rescue dog however is a different story, he chases everything. Its only coz he never had the experience of other animals before - infact I think he has been house bound most of his 8 months...... As is everything with our dogs, its all in the training and solid recall - which i`m still working on , lol. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted December 30, 2007 Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 I think the first advice may have sounded harsh if you don't know the previous background on this particular dog: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...c=15658&hl= I'm not expert by any means, but it sounds to me as though this dog needs stability and a solid home and trainer more than anything else - not to be taken in for a short while again, then transferred off to yet another owner. From previous posts, I believe that this dog is now living in the trainer's rented space, where the renters are not supposed to allow the dog inside the house. At first, he was sneaked in, and made to stay on a small mat when he was inside the house; it was considered problematic that he whined when being forced to lie on this mat. (This particular piece of the story is most troubling to me - because it shows a real lack of understanding of dog behavior and training.) Original advice was for this trainer/caregiver to rehome the dog to a more suitable environment, where he could be given attention and affection and allowed to be with a family. However, I think the trainer sent him back to the first owner, where he ended up (as predicted) tied outside all day once again, and behavior reverted. So... it doesn't sound to me as though any long-term happy environment has been arranged for this dog. Again, I'd say the best possible ending for this dog would be to go through rescue to a devoted home where he is wanted and can be brought around by owners who are not at the whims of landlords, or afraid the relationship with horses might not work out, and who are fully committed to the future of this dog. Every single home transition brings more scars to this dog, who doubtless has enough already. Sorry if this seems "harsh." I simply can't bear the thought of this dog being moved around like a chess piece, when there is probably an excellent home waiting for him. Kiwi, I believe that you want the best for the dog, but judging by the previous posts, it simply sounds like you're probably not able to guarantee the stability and solidity this dog needs after three major transitions. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted December 30, 2007 Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 hink the first advice may have sounded harsh if you don't know the previous background on this particular dog: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...c=15658&hl= I'm not expert by any means, but it sounds to me as though this dog needs stability and a solid home and trainer more than anything else - not to be taken in for a short while again, then transferred off to yet another owner. From previous posts, I believe that this dog is now living in the trainer's rented space, where the renters are not supposed to allow the dog inside the house. At first, he was sneaked in, and made to stay on a small mat when he was inside the house; it was considered problematic that he whined when being forced to lie on this mat. (This particular piece of the story is most troubling to me - because it shows a real lack of understanding of dog behavior and training.) Original advice was for this trainer/caregiver to rehome the dog to a more suitable environment, where he could be given attention and affection and allowed to be with a family. However, I think the trainer sent him back to the first owner, where he ended up (as predicted) tied outside all day once again, and behavior reverted. So... it doesn't sound to me as though any long-term happy environment has been arranged for this dog. Again, I'd say the best possible ending for this dog would be to go through rescue to a devoted home where he is wanted and can be brought around by owners who are not at the whims of landlords, or afraid the relationship with horses might not work out, and who are fully committed to the future of this dog. Every single home transition brings more scars to this dog, who doubtless has enough already. Sorry if this seems "harsh." I simply can't bear the thought of this dog being moved around like a chess piece, when there is probably an excellent home waiting for him. Kiwi, I believe that you want the best for the dog, but judging by the previous posts, it simply sounds like you're probably not able to guarantee the stability and solidity this dog needs after three major transitions. Mary Thank you Mary, for clarifying that, for those who had not seen or kept up with this little dogs plight up to now. Teaching a get out, you can do with a long line. Dont hold it, else the dog will think he should go where the lead is. When he trys to enter corral, or pasture, step, or walk swiftly towards the dog, pushing him back with your body language and mind, saying no! Get Out! If he trys to get around you, step on the long line, stop him, and put him out of the corral, firmly reiterating, no, get out, and stay out. By saying use your mind, I mean that you have to mean it, its not an exercise, and you need to be able to put off the air that you are not happy, and that this is unacceptable behavior. While walking towards the dog, walk with authority, and use your hands and arms out in front of you, in a pushing motion, pushing away from you. Verbally, your voice has to be firm, this is not a request, its a command, and not one to be taken lightly. Praise him only when he has gone out, and stayed out for a few minuets time, and dont praise through the fence, go out of the fence, and praise outside the horses. Chasing horses is a life or death situation, and Ive seen many a good dog seriously hurt to the point where they wouldnt work stock ever again because of it. Do this work, within close proxcimity of the fencing, dont turn your back on the dog. I would tie the horse too, so in case the dog does get in, you only have to worry about where he is and arent standing in the middle of a horse and dog chasing situation. Rule of thumb is, that it takes 60 to 90 days for a trained action to become trained for a life time. This is not some thing that just because he didnt go in yesterday, that he wont today. Chasing is a strong instinct for a BC and is very excieting to do. For the same token, dont allow him to run the fence line either, he is still chasing horses, he's just modified his way of doing it. Once youve got him staying out, do your down stays, and every few days, extend the period of time you ask him to stay. Dont expect him to stay down for an hour if he cant stay down for 15 minuets first. Training takes time, retaining the training takes even more time, and consistancy every time. I may have left some thing out here, or some one else may have another way of teaching a dog to get out, if so, jump on in, as I dont have very many veritables in my methods, and its always good to get more than one opinion. Good luck, I really hope everything turns out for the best for the little fella. Darci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenKiwi Posted December 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 So are you saying I shouldnt take this dog back because they dont want him? Just hope that the owners find him a loving caring home? In the meantime he is left locked up all day??? What the hell would you do? I love this dog and have done everything I can for him. The rescues are overflowing to the point people are tying dogs up outside and leaving them. I dont want that fate for Jasper, cause you know where they end up from there dont you?? You seem to have some sort of romantic notion that it is easy to find a difficult- to- handle- by- the- average- person 2 year old dog a loving family home. I will continue to do all I can for him. I do not see how I am percieved as the irresponsible one when the owners took a BC puppy and left him to rot for two years with absolutely no training or love. He didnt even HAVE a recall! He was not allowed inside initially only because the pet bond was waived for us, this is because he was only staying for a month. If we had him for a longer term that simply would not be an issue. Jasper came to enjoy his 'small' mat I will have you know ( it is actually huge and fluffy) he sits on it next to us and it is a great way to keep the cream carpet clean. He gets massess of attention in the evening. About finding a decent trainer... I am working towards becoming a behaviourist. I am working underneath an expert and have his help for everything. I have yet to start this job, and it is learn on the job. I am not quite the imbecille you seem to think. I dont have years of expertise but I do know a fair bit about canine and equine behaviour which will be my field. It is not an industry you can get training for. It has to be on the job. And beleive it or not I have also gone one step further and have a degree in ...... ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR. I have been training horses for many, many years and am called on for my expertise. I have successfully trained a few dogs, and wish to expand into that area too. I have been around them my whole life and raised several. BC's are an intense version, I know. None of what has been said is new to me. I think I will find another board to ask questions to look for some constructive help. The question I ask was whether or not it is possible to re train this dog given the right approach, I have had one useful reply. Coming here was a big mistake, most of you lot are rather hostile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted December 30, 2007 Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 So are you saying I shouldnt take this dog back because they dont want him? Just hope that the owners find him a loving caring home? In the meantime he is left locked up all day??? Im saying, it might be within the dogs best interest for the dog to be placed with a stockdog trainer, or a rescue. Be it you who places the dog, or them. The rescues are overflowing to the point people are tying dogs up outside and leaving them I find it hard to believe that rescue people would do this. He didnt even HAVE a recall! This is one of the many things that folks that do rescue do, is train the dogs. You seem to have some sort of romantic notion Not a romantic notion, just a realistic one he sits on it next to us and it is a great way to keep the cream carpet clean Clean cream carpets and dogs? That seems a romantic notion. About finding a decent trainer... I am working towards becoming a behaviourist. I am working underneath an expert and have his help for everything. I have yet to start this job, and it is learn on the job. I am not quite the imbecille you seem to think. I dont have years of expertise but I do know a fair bit about canine and equine behaviour which will be my field. It is not an industry you can get training for. It has to be on the job. And beleive it or not I have also gone one step further and have a degree in ...... ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR. I have been training horses for many, many years and am called on for my expertise. I have successfully trained a few dogs, and wish to expand into that area too. I have been around them my whole life and raised several. BC's are an intense version, I know. None of what has been said is new to me. No one has called you anything, but this is a dog that deserves to be in a stable enviornment, for the hard to handle issues to be overcome. As of yet, being shuffeled from them, to you, back to the owners, back to you, doesnt sound like a very stable life. I think I will find another board to ask questions to look for some constructive help Do you really want constructive help? Or just some one to tell you that your doing the right thing by the dog? I may speak for myself here, but I think that it is more important at this point, not so much to get the dog trained, ( although there are some ground rules and basics he'll need ro learn to be safe) as it is to allow him to become stable first. Once he has become stable, and comfortable, ( rule of thumb for a dog to really settle in to a new home and bond with the new owner, is 60 to 90 days) his confidence will soar, and you will begin to see the real dog. Then, you will have some thing to work with. I dont plan on getting into a pissing match with you, and you can do as you please, though I think you'll find some other BC boards to be less forgiving than this one. But I think your trying to put to much pressure on this dog, trying to train everything to fast, and expecting it to stick. Let him settle first, and decide if you can comit to the dog, then take things one step at a time. For a dog to retain training, and become trustworthy and consistant it needs to be worked with almost daily, for upwards of 6 months. Perhaps your expert may want to remind you of that. None of what has been said is new to me. This would not be an attitude I would think one should adopt when asking for advise. most of you lot are rather hostile No, just more concerned about the dog and its well being, rather than if you can train dogs or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted December 30, 2007 Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 This statement seems a bit harsh to me. I'm glad no one told me I should get rid of my BC who had a whole set of issues issues because I had no experience with the breed. We all started somewhere. For those that think I was being harsh, I think it safe to say, that in your case, you were comitted to your dog when you brought it home. Statements like this: If he does come right with work we may keep him, otherwise we just have to rehome him. We were not intending to get a dog Do not indicate to me that there is any comitment from this person to the dog, there fore, I stand firm on my statements. And, I did answer the question that was asked originally to the best of my ability in a most respectful manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnandreturn Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Sometimes people forget that advice is a little like medicine. It might not taste very good but it is what you need at the time! Robin, You are incredible. Even after the "Animal Behaviorist" insults you, you take the time to give her well thought out advice, My hat is off to you! As to the original question. Yes a Border Collie can be taught to not work or look at the horses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Here is my experience.....for what it is worth. I had this same issue when I adopted a 2 yr old BC and my two horses. This is what I did. When I started to see that my BC was chasing my horses, and the horses were not happy about it I stopped it immediately. I started training, with the help of a friend that the round pen was off limits, she was not allowed to go inside. This kept everyone safe. I did however let her run around the outside of the pen (I know this will be controversial ) and then would tell her to leave it after a while and have her sit outside(this is where my friend came in). This did a couple things for me, it trained my horses that dogs will run after them and not to take off, I do a lot of trail riding and frequently have dogs come darting out after us and my horses don't even flinch. The other thing it did was to create a boundry for BC. I also started to take my BC in the stable with me so that the horses and the dog were aware of each other and everything stayed very calm (this took a while) The horses had to respect the dog and me being around them and naughty behavior like ears pinned back or attempt to bite was not acceptable. I take my BC with me quite a bit when I ride. She stays very close but the horses are used to her now (took about a year) and now my horses watch the dog to alert them of anything on the trail that they may be cautious of. My BC will occassionally chase one of my horses (only one will play) now and when they do now it is very playful for both horse and dog, but I watch it very closely so that the play stays at a play for both horse and dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 I watch it very closely so that the play stays at a play for both horse and dog. Dogs and horses playing?? Can I ask Sid, have you given any thought to what would happen if the dog got out one day while you were'nt around to supervise, or it decided to try to play with some one elses horses that were not so friendly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Point well taken....I need to curb this behavior...but it is so much fun to see the two of them play, one of them will run and the other will chase then they turn around and repeat the same game. I play with my horses this way in the corral at times (but at a much slower speed of course!) and I guess my dog picked up on it...(now you will really think that I am crazy!) ha But to your point....could get me into trouble down the road, which I would rather avoid! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 IMO, chasing games aren't good things to teach horses. JMO, of course - I've seen the teenagers at my former boarding barn do it and everyone, girl and horse, had a great time. But, at best, the horse is learning it's acceptable to come towards a human at speed. Imagine some old lady (like me) bought your horse (cause you can't always keep them forever) and one day it decided to play that game with her! Grumpy old ex-schoolmarm that I am, I'd probably get the lunge whip after such an obstreperous equine! To the OP, I never ever let my BC out with my horses. If horses are in the pasture, BC are on leashes. Someone on here has trained her BC to leave horses well alone, but I'm just too paranoid to attempt it. My one little paint horse chases deer for daring to graze his grass, so I don't want to find out what he'd do to a cheeky collie. And my Violet BC came to me because she was a horse-chaser at her last home. She has a (still painful) healed break in her leg and a bum knee to prove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnickerKitten Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 I don't have any horses right now but when I take Stormy to a friend's house that has horses I do keep him leashed. He's not really shown any inclination to chase them or even get to close to them. Just a few sniffs, a nose touch or two, and then his attention is right back on what I'm doing. However, he did meet a zebra at another friend's house (came from a rescue) and if he hadn't been on his leash he would have been all over the zebra. My old horse trainer had a jack russell terrier that she had trained to stay away from all horses. She could bring her out to the barn I was at and let her run around while I had my lesson and her dog wouldn't set one foot in the training ring or pastures. I'm not sure what she did to train her to stay away from horses being led around outside the fenced off areas, but I do know that she had trained her not to cross any fence even if it is just a double rail. Lori Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silhouettestable Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 Well, my 6 dogs go out with me every day doing chores, and that means running through the horses fields and being loose around them while I'm feeding (hay is fed outside, I don't have a barn so horses aren't stalled, they're on 24/7 turnout with access to shelters) I also dogsled on trails that run through the fields and bush, and we go past the area where the horses are eating without problems, even if the horses have moved up closer to our trail, the dogs just have to learn to go "on by" (which means past any distractions). My horses have about 10 acres and have full access to everything since only the perimeter is fenced, with the exception of a very limited area around my house, and the dogs fenced backyard. I've had a couple of dogs want to do a bit of chasing, but with work I've taught them that it's not acceptable. There's still one that I watch very carefully (Flash, my adopted probable BC/ACD). He liked to bark at the horses and bounce at them, but I can now call him off. Storm loves to race in circles around the horses while they're eating (round and round), but he doesn't chase them and the horses are aware of that and ignore him entirely. I have had a couple of dogs get a bump from the horses, but my horses are well used to dogs and don't put any real effort into kicking them, it's been more of a warning tap. Of course I don't want my dogs to really get kicked and injured, but since I do take them everywhere with me when doing chores and they are exposed to the horses a lot, they have to learn. Sometimes a light bump is the best thing that can happen to them if they show any inclination to chase. It teaches them to respect the horses and give them space. When Thunder was younger he liked to stay behind the fence and bark at the horses, sometimes diving under the fence towards them. One day he got zapped by the electric fence when he did that and I'm sure he must have thought the horse did it to him because he never bothered horses again, he now gives them lots of space. (which has made me think too that although very controversial, a shock collar might just be the most effective way to stop dogs chasing horses, but I've never tried that), I spend time working with them and training them how to behave (or how not to behave) around horses. When they're young pups I'll carry them out near the horses and let them sniff noses a few times, but leave them behind in the backyard while the adult dogs and I do chores. By the time they're a few months old I'll still leave the pups in the yard while feeding the horses, but then let them out with me to do the other chores at the chicken coop and keep our distance from the horses. In this way, both the pups and the horses are becoming accustomed to seeing each other around and don't react in a big way (yes, my horses will definitely chase a strange dog that they don't know if one comes into the field, so I need them to get to know my dogs). With the pups I also work a lot on recalls and leave it. They have to learn to go in among the chickens and leave them alone, and that they can't chase the bunnies either. In both of those cases as soon as I say "out" or "we're all done, let's go" they leave the coop or bunny pens. Training the pups this way has always worked for me, but I don't know if the same methods would work as well with a 2 year old dog, especially if he already has any chasing tendencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 My dogs too, go out with me every day, and have been taught since wee ones that horses are off limits. So Ive never really had a problem with any of them bothering the horses. The electric fence is a pretty good deterant as well, for those courious enough to try to get in with them. I dont take any of the collies riding with me, but I do take my GSD so my horses are pretty use to having a dog tag along behind, and have nevered offered to even lightly tap one. Though we had some wild dogs here awhile back get in and harass them, so they have been a bit skittish about dogs every since then, even my own that they are familiar with Ive not been able to take the last couple of times. But years ago, I use to have an ACD that I kept at a stable I managed for a few years, and your right, that some times it just takes a well aimed tap,to teach an ever zealous dog to leave it. I wouldnt reccomend it, but some times when it happens, it works out for the best. Luckily, it did for her, and she lived many more years happy and content to keep her distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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