ClickMeBC Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 I don't know if I've used the correct term, but what is involved in "dog-breaking" a flock of disrespectful sheep? I've always assumed it meant bringing in a powerful stock dog that accepted no "buts" or "no"s from a flock of sheep that simply do not regard a 35 lb dog as a threat and instill in them that a dog is something to be aware of and move away from. Is this true? I haven't really read or heard of anything pertaining to the actual process....if a process exists. We aquired a very small flock this spring and Quynn, being ten months old, has had a few introductions and short sessions involving them to work on directional commands. We quickly discovered, however, that our sheep are useless in training a puppy - they do not consistently respect Quynn's advances. Some will even turn and threaten him, which has led me to keep him away from them to prevent an accident that might injure him - mentally or physically. I've decided to keep him away from the sheep for now and wait until we begin working with a trainer and her flock in the Spring, but would like to eventually be able to work with our own sheep. Is it possible to "dog-break" a flock that has had no previous experience with one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 Is it possible to "dog-break" a flock that has had no previous experience with one? Yes, but it would be easier for all concerned if the dog breaking were done using experienced dogs. I just brought in a flock of 11 sheep, including a ram with really big horns, that had never been worked by dogs but were used to being handled by people (which can make them doubly annoying as they have no real respect for the human's "space"). I started working them with one of my open dogs (the one I know won't give to the sheep, even if hit, which she was). She doesn't usually grip inapprorpiately and is savvy enough to know when to release pressure and give the sheep a chance to move off her before she has to do any bullying. If the ram was behaving especially rank (he had just been put in with the girls when I brought them home, so was feeling quite studly), I'd take two dogs in so that his only reward for going after one was to have the other go after him while he was occupied with the first (I don't know if others would do it that way, but I used two dogs basically to help ensure the safety of the main dog who was contending with the charging ram--I did this after he hit her hard one time). In a short while (just a few sessions) I had them respecting a dog. I can now take the pups in and work them and the sheep will move off nicely. That doesn't mean they're suitable for training youngsters on, but they did learn pretty quickly to respect a dog and move away from one (especially important with the ram as I don't want to get hurt going in there with him). Anyway, the main point is that it's best to use trained dogs to break your sheep before trying to work them with a green dog. IMO anyway. Also, if the sheep are truly disrespectful, then you need to make sure the dog(s) you use to break them have the power and grit to do what's necessary to gain their respect. A dog that will give ground to bullying sheep is only going to teach them they can bully a dog. You don't need a dog who's first action is to grip or otherwise antagonize sheep, but the dog does need to be willing and able to defend itself when the sheep test it. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 If you are asking if you can work a non-dogged flock with a 10 month old pup? Yes, no, and maybe. Depends on the pup. You'd have to back him up if they challange him, and as an inexperienced handler that will be difficult to time well - that is to back him up only, not demean him by taking over, or teach him that he can't stand up for himself etc. If you have a trainer with good dogs, they will likely be more than willing to give their dogs fresh sheep experiences and train your flock at the same time. Just ask... What I would do if I couldn't get help, is set up situations to train the pup that he can win in. How many sheep are we talking about? What type? What size pasture or lot? Do they know dogs at all? feral ones? For example I have novice dog/handler teams (who can at least circle in training) start to gather an average undogged farm flock is by sending the dog around them when they are already committed to going in a direction. That way most of the bossier sheep are occupied and the pup "wins" without confronting them. For example the first time you send the pup around them when the sheep are 10 yards from some really coveted good hay, theyn 15, then 20, then 40... Then while the sheep eat I lie the pup down about 15 yards out, and as the some of the sheep wander away I work on his flanks to cover those. It's all very calm and quiet. If he gets a stroppy one I encourage him to "get'r" and step over their to help him and perhaps thunk her side or nose (underhanded, and subtle, lest you threaten the pup too) to back the pup up. Then when she gives (typically going back to the food source) I lie the pup down and back off of him so he can have his confidence for the "win". As time goes I send the pup further and further, with less coveted food sources to help him move the sheep. Again the goal, and the method, should all be very calm and quiet, and if no sheep confront the pup that's fine as well. The point is to help him understand the job, and teach the sheep that moving away from the dog is expected and rewarded ( dog does not chase or continue to pressure them) Distances are relative, set up is relative...this all has to be flexed to your situations and animals. If working the sheep before you get formal lessons is imperative, it may be necessary to accept cruder work that is at least effective - as opposed to aiming for perfection on a dog too young to do it, on sheep that are beyond him for that as well. Caveat is that you can create lifelong bad habits, but if the work needs doing, it needs doing, and you do your best to polish later. edited to add. The larger the group...up to 200 anyway...the easier it is to smoothly train the sheep to respond. The smaller the group the more likely you are to see fight or flight reponses that only an experienced dog can handle safely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 Julie I prefer 2 dogs as well. Beinn and Sally were superb at hard charging sheep, as they'd just rock back on their hindquarters at the last moment and it would end up between them. Then they'd each take a cheek and turn the sheep toes over teakettle. This was reserved for the worst of sheep, and usually only done once before the point was made. And without injury...to any of us. I wouldn't keep horned rams. Did for a while, and no more. Too dangerous for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 Thanks for the info you two! Last week, we went and worked a flock of Suffolk's (I know now - bad sheep) but they were offered to us anytime we wanted to come out. They are not in the least "friendly". Bree got pounded, once, and came back, though I heard her teeth clack she didn't grip. I don't have a bite on her and really don't want one, she doesn't grip - well, hasn't ever. Anyhow, I had to help her some and these buggers were willing to run me over just as well. Hopefully this weekend I'll have some back up dogs with me. And I will take the whole bunch of them (50 or so) instead of 5 or 6 away from the barn! Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 hmmmm....I'd love an invite for Suffolk herding....<big fat hint> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 Come on!!! You need directions? Tell me when you will be arriving Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 you are so in trouble if you are kidding.... PMed you. I've got a lovely flock of a hundred+ bred to lamb in February. 60% of them are yearlings. You coming to help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 Timing might be just right. That and I don't need directions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gail Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 All good advice so far. One other thing you can do if the previous replies aren't feasible is to add some dog-broke sheep to your flock. They will help teach your current sheep how to react to a dog. Still may not be work for a pup, but it will help if you need to get the job done with your current dog. good luck, gail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClickMeBC Posted December 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 I appreciate all the replies - excellent info and advice! I'm certainly not looking to dog break these sheep with Quynn. He hasn't got nearly the experience required and it's not imperative to work him before he does aquire the experience. It's a mixed flock of Shetlands and Romneys, with one Corriedale and a Tunis. The Romneys, I've been told, do not have the strongest of flocking instincts and Shetlands have a tendency to be aggressive, though the lambs mind the dog quite well. Adding a few dog-broken sheep to the mix might be the thing to do if I can't somehow get an experienced dog up here, though Quynn's breeder or trainer may be willing to do the job. The sheep are wintering in a comfortably sized paddock and run-in shed, perhaps not the best place to work a dog. I think if we had more space to train in, things might go more smoothly, so it will be worth it to wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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