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I posted this in the expert section but I wanted to see what everyone else had to say while I wait for Miss Bev to answer as well :rolleyes:

 

Chesney will be 3 in February. He has been training mostly over the Summer and winter months when I am home from school (Chesney goes to school with me). He can outrun (although he tends to be tight, but widens up when he starts to get tired later in training), then we run into the problems with the fetch. Rather fetching in general. He has a hard time balancing sheep to me without a lot of wearing or without 'forgetting' a few of them. Tonight was the first night I tried him on a bigger group thinking he would keep them together better, but he just ended up splitting them and continuing on his marry way fetching sheep to me without even giving a second thought to the other group! Its driving me crazy because I know what is happening, or atleast I think I know. He's coming in too fast and I think relying on me WAY more than he should be to keep the sheep together. He tries to do everything as fast as he can get it done. I can see though that he will slow down and think, and when he does, he is a nice little dog to work with. But that doesn't happen a whole lot yet.

 

Chesney when I turn to check on everything behind me, we have half the sheep we started with and Chesney is walking directly behind me looking at me (not his sheep) and the only sheep that are walking with us are off to the side kind of not even paying attention to us. Grrr. If I flank him to cover his sheep he will keep everyone nice and tight together, if I don't well we lose our sheep. This only seems to be the case on the fetch. When Chesney is driving he seems like he takes the reins more and is more responsible when it comes to keeping the group together (still not 100% but way better than on the fetch).

 

After going to Jack's clinic he had me touching the sheep and making the sheep fun and interesting, which works really well to get his gaze off me when he is circling. This though after a few times seems to speed him up into a frenzy of circling and/or if we are fetching just makes him interested in the group infront of him. I don't return his gaze when he looks at me. I will keep doing what Jack had me doing but I would love to hear what others have as well hoping that something will work.

 

On a side note, Chesney is really good in close quarters doing chores and I know he will never be the next nation champion but I would atleast like to one day run him in P/N or even Open... :D

 

 

Thanks

 

Danielle

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Okay, I know NUTTIN... But, what are these sheep like to work? How do they work with other dogs? Do they routinely split off when fetched? That just seems odd to me- split off on the lift, maybe, but the fetch? Is your dog pushing them hard on the fetch? Are the sheep reticent to be with people? Have you done exercises with him having him fetch sheep off pressure- so he has to pull them off, and be sure he has them? What does he do when he lifts the sheep? Does he bust in? Again, I know nuttin', but those are just some questions. From the video you have posted in the past, I would say that he was plenty keen...

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That just seems odd to me- split off on the lift, maybe, but the fetch? Is your dog pushing them hard on the fetch?

Hey Julie,

Some sheep will simply take advantage of a young/inexperienced dog and split if they can. I have sheep like this. Couple them with a youngster who wants to bore in and focus only on what's directly in front of him/her and you have a recipe for sheep splitting off (it doesn't happen so much now that my pups understand their work more and I got rid of the cheviots, who were the queens of taking advantage and splitting off). A strong draw that you're fetching at an angle to, coupled with a pushy dog can also do it. Both Lark and Pip were especially bad about this (although I used it to my advantage by working on their "look" and "look back" commands when I sent them back to get what they'd allowed to split off), but they have both improved with maturity. Backing the dog off some can help--oops low battery, be back in a second....

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Julie,

It *is* annoying, but at some point the dog does need to learn to bring *all* the sheep. At the time, my flock was inappropriate for young dogs, so I stopped using them and started using a smaller group of dog-broke sheep (the main flock could easily be worked by experienced dogs, but was too much for the pups).

 

The secret is to have sheep that are appropriate to the training level of the dog. If you don't (as I didn't at the time), then you have to work around the things like that. I would start by using fewer sheep and when I took the group I wanted to work, I'd make sure it didn't include those who were most inclined to split off (in my case it was the cheviots and the tunis). Family groups (ewes and lambs) are more likely to stay together, for example.

 

In general I don't think sheep just split willy nilly (other than perhaps the breeds that tend to be nonflocking). It's not clear from Danielle's post whether Chesney is boring in and focusing on just a few and pushing them along or if he's actively splitting the group and then bringing only part. Danielle?

 

J.

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My theory is that young/inexperienced dogs are either poor counters, or simple so glad to have a few they are willing to forget the rest :D

 

I've sent at least one young dog for over a hundred, and he was so enamored with his abilities that he brought me the back middle 3 :rolleyes::D:D The rest started out coming along too, but the judged him rightly and began peeling away to the sides. Some did the invisible sheep thing...where they stand very, very still and let the stupid dog go right by them with the less brilliant, and therefore visible, sheep.

 

I know the dog didn't see the sheep he left, because when you flip them back the surprise on their face about the additional sheep is priceless. About the 3rd time you do it, they start really looking at the whole field. Sometimes that happens faster, if it doesn't I putt the dog in situations where the land and the weather making redoing hard on the dog. Deep mud, rocks....

 

I like larger groups like this to get the dog more involved in working to complete the job, as opposed to pushy self gratification.

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Sorry for not being clear. I was trying to make it as make sense as I could. Its kind of confusing, but I'll try again now that I have a better idea of how I said what I did. :D

 

what are these sheep like to work? How do they work with other dogs? Do they routinely split off when fetched? That just seems odd to me- split off on the lift, maybe, but the fetch? Is your dog pushing them hard on the fetch? Are the sheep reticent to be with people? Have you done exercises with him having him fetch sheep off pressure- so he has to pull them off, and be sure he has them? What does he do when he lifts the sheep? Does he bust in?

 

I sorted a group yesterday (about 10) that were not knee knockers but they are not wild either (mostly dorper crosses and a few Suffolk because these are the only ones in Anna's bunch that will tell you is your dog is really keeping an eye on everyone). I was working Anna's sheep and most of them are pretty dog broke, they get interactions with dogs every day. I liked these because the dog actually has to lift them since they will not just readily walk up to a person. Even last years lambs are nice to work. Chesney has been known to be pushy, but more so in the sense of he just wants to get the job done as fast as he can. Thats how he has been with everything he does, even since he was a pup. Fast Fast Fast!

 

When he is fetching me sheep after the lift (which he has no problem with, he actually seems very thoughtful when lifting) he is not running fast. If the sheep take off at a jog towards me he is at a slow lope (run). If they take off walking/trotting towards me he is at a brisk trot right up their butts. He has a great lie down but I don't want to constantly be downing him because I want him to learn to feel his sheep. He will work any kind of sheep, flighty or heavy, the same. This is my problem :D Chesney is keen to work, thats not his issue :D

 

I also want to throw in that I have really only started noticing this, intensely watching me and not his sheep, the last 3-4 months, and like I said, if I send him to flank and cover he will do it and get everyone back together. I would rather have the dog back to doing that naturally though. And also like I mentioned above this problem seems to me (or atleast from his point of view) that he is counting on me and not holding up his end of the deal.

 

I would find that HIGHLY annoying

 

Oh you have no idea :rolleyes:

 

Its even more annoying when you turn around and have the dog just staring at YOU! I mean hello! I'm not the one you need to be watching. This is my original question.

 

How do I get my dogs focus off me and back on his sheep? If I move off balance he will balance again but if we continue in a straight line this is where he runs into trouble.

 

If all this still is not making sense I will try to get a video on Saturday to help with my question...

 

Thanks to all of you for trying to help :D

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Hey Chicky

Sometimes it is hard to see what you're getting at- through no fault of yours- brains sometimes are just not on the same page :rolleyes:

You know what helped Lucy with her right up their butt's stuff? When I had her fetch, as the sheep got to me, we went right into a drive. She was still very focused on the sheep, and she learned to stay off and keep an eye on where they were headed- I was next to her at first, but as she gets more comfortable, she got more ahead of me, and it was a perty picture :D This has also helped with her fetch. She is comfortable being more off them on the fetch, knowing that she can control them from a distance off them. So, that's one thing you might try. Keep him near your side at first on the drive, by patting your leg, so he is even with you, and then be ready to prevent the fetch when he feels not in control... If he is at your side, he should be looking at the sheep as you are- don't let him stay behind you- I know, easier said than done.

 

I am officially going through sheep work withdrawal, looks like another few days due to snow/weather, before we can work- makes me just sick! Of course, I may be late for the festivities on the day(s) we work, but so be it!

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I'm not sure exactly what's going on but there may be a couple of issues.....

 

Perhaps you are sending him farther that he's ready for...can he gather correctly at a shorter distance?

 

If is he bouncing back and forth, he is likely 1) too close 2) using his body to move sheep rather than his eye 3) too fast

 

Some dog's need to be taught to use their eye...even dogs with very little eye. I suspect his tops are flat and he need to be backed off the stock. Gather fewer sheep, stop him as he starts to flop around and walk him up....if he gets up too fast, stop him again and ask him to walk up. Look for him to engage his eye rather than allowing him to rush up and 'blam' into the sheep again. Working too close, he can't see the forest through the trees...he's too close and flopping once side to the other...instead he should be farther back where he can see the whole group (which may need to be made smaller....and remove the wicked ones).

 

Regarding at the looking at you issue, you may be falling into the trap of commanding him to be correct (ie flanking him to cover), rather than allowing him to be wrong or right and correcting him for the mistake. ie. when he doesn't cover correct him and position yourself to exaggerate the 'wrong-ness' of the situation. If he is indeed being asked for more than he's ready for, there may be too many things going wrong at once....simplify the exercise and then correct the wrong. If you are commanding him to 'prevent' or 'fix' the wrong, then he is never learning what he's doing wrong. You may be telling him everything instead of teaching him to feel it himself. Also, dogs will look back at the handler when they are uncomfortable or uncertain...ie over their head...you might be asking him for more than he's ready for.

 

Some of my points may not be correct for your situation but I'm not getting a complete clear picture. Please disregard the rambling that might not apply.

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Hey Chicky

Sometimes it is hard to see what you're getting at- through no fault of yours- brains sometimes are just not on the same page :D

You know what helped Lucy with her right up their butt's stuff? When I had her fetch, as the sheep got to me, we went right into a drive. She was still very focused on the sheep, and she learned to stay off and keep an eye on where they were headed- I was next to her at first, but as she gets more comfortable, she got more ahead of me, and it was a perty picture :D This has also helped with her fetch. She is comfortable being more off them on the fetch, knowing that she can control them from a distance off them. So, that's one thing you might try. Keep him near your side at first on the drive, by patting your leg, so he is even with you, and then be ready to prevent the fetch when he feels not in control... If he is at your side, he should be looking at the sheep as you are- don't let him stay behind you- I know, easier said than done.

 

I am officially going through sheep work withdrawal, looks like another few days due to snow/weather, before we can work- makes me just sick! Of course, I may be late for the festivities on the day(s) we work, but so be it!

 

We can do more driving, he loves to drive and has always had a nice slow pace when he drives. Its just the stupid fetch! haha It's like he doesn't think that a nice pace has to carry over to all the stuff we do. But we shall try that too. I'm open to suggestions. I will still take a video of him tomorrow of what he is doing since it seems I'm having a hard time painting the picture. :rolleyes:

 

I'm not sure exactly what's going on but there may be a couple of issues.....

 

Perhaps you are sending him farther that he's ready for...can he gather correctly at a shorter distance?

 

He does this no matter the distance. His outrun is pretty decent and is now running way wider than he used to so I'm not terribly worried at this point about being a little tight, he doesn't upset the sheep when he comes in to lift, they just come a little off line. He acts the same whether the sheep are around my feet or 100 yards away. :D

 

If is he bouncing back and forth, he is likely 1) too close 2) using his body to move sheep rather than his eye 3) too fast

 

Some dog's need to be taught to use their eye...even dogs with very little eye. I suspect his tops are flat and he need to be backed off the stock. Gather fewer sheep, stop him as he starts to flop around and walk him up....if he gets up too fast, stop him again and ask him to walk up. Look for him to engage his eye rather than allowing him to rush up and 'blam' into the sheep again. Working too close, he can't see the forest through the trees...he's too close and flopping once side to the other...instead he should be farther back where he can see the whole group (which may need to be made smaller....and remove the wicked ones).

 

Being too close seems to be his issue and he gets too close because he is going faster than the sheep. I think you are right and if I work on his pace then it will solve a lot of the issue, because it is almost like he doesn't see the other ones leave the group. We shall try this tomorrow when we go out.

 

Regarding at the looking at you issue, you may be falling into the trap of commanding him to be correct (ie flanking him to cover), rather than allowing him to be wrong or right and correcting him for the mistake. ie. when he doesn't cover correct him and position yourself to exaggerate the 'wrong-ness' of the situation. If he is indeed being asked for more than he's ready for, there may be too many things going wrong at once....simplify the exercise and then correct the wrong. If you are commanding him to 'prevent' or 'fix' the wrong, then he is never learning what he's doing wrong. You may be telling him everything instead of teaching him to feel it himself. Also, dogs will look back at the handler when they are uncomfortable or uncertain...ie over their head...you might be asking him for more than he's ready for.

 

Some of my points may not be correct for your situation but I'm not getting a complete clear picture. Please disregard the rambling that might not apply.

 

I thought, as you made the comment he can't see the forest through the trees, made me think that if he backs off his sheep more on the fetch he can then also see where I am in his peripheral vision. He I think looks at me for two reasons, one he is moving the sheep with his body and not his eye because he is looking to see where I am to keep the sheep to me, and also he is looking for his next command (even though I don't give that many to begin with, at least I don't think I do).

 

I do let him be wrong and a correction, usually a "hello what are you doing?" some are harsher than others. When he is wrong though he usually doesn't seem like he knows how to fix it, so I do a lot of standing while the sheep wonder off and he decided to engage his head to figure out what he is doing. I have over the last couple of months kind of bailed him out of problems when they arise and I have tried to stop doing that in the last couple of sessions we've gone out to work so hopefully he should start to get it.

 

We shall try backing him off then :D

 

Thanks

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. There is a point in the video where he loses his sheep on the Away outrun. A couple of times in the fetching he does look at me but the quality of the youtube video is not as great as the original video.

 

Comments and critiques are very welcome :D Let me know if you guys don't want the music on the beginning of the video I just didn't like listening to myself talk on the video :rolleyes:

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I watched your video and i'd say you need to give him a correction just as that sheep starts to lag off the others. Go at the dog and make him jump back a bit and around that sheep - again, when it very first starts to happen, not when it's already split off and it's easy for the dog to just ignore it. "Sheep, what sheep, i didn't see no sheep...." :rolleyes: I never saw/heard you let him know you didn't care for him letting those just split off. Make it more obvious to him with a bit of correction.

 

Re the looking at you - don't look back. Avert your eyes when he looks at you, or even look at the sheep, anything but looking back. He'll stop doing it if he doesn't get what he wants, which is eye contact and reassurance from you.

 

Just some thoughts....

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Thanks Robin :D and everyone else too . Yesterday I kept it in my head to keep looking at my sheep if we were working close and it seemed to work, I could see him (peripherally) that his attention went right back to the sheep.

 

I will work on the correction. I wasn't correcting him much while I was filming, I'm just not THAT much of a multi-tasker to walk backwards film and give direction at the same time while being bumped by sheep :rolleyes: Also you kind of got to see how he would work and make the mistakes he did :D

 

Thanks though we've got a lot of good advice to go work on now :D

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Guest carol campion

Hi Danielle

 

I watched your video, which I enjoyed very much, and have some further insights for you.

 

You dog has a nice amount of eye but it seems to me that he is not using it, as you and others have already pointed out. Stopping a dog can actually give it more eye and help it feel its sheep more. Sounds counter intuitive, but here is why it works and how to get it to work.

 

Like Elisabeth said, he is too close and "Can't see the forest for the trees". It is a favorite phrase of mine too Elisabeth! He is so close that he is losing his feel for the balance point and where to be and because he hasn't a lot of eye, isn't sure where to be. His flip flopping behind sheep is actually causing the sheep to spread. His looking at you might be his discomfort in "losing" his sheep and correcting him at this point may do the opposite of what you want-take more confidence away. I would not correct this dog too much just yet. I would go back and retrain his and directness fetches and help him with is contact. With handling, help him keep his distance and walk directly into the pressure first. You can do this by introducing a stop more often.

 

By stopping him a distance away and letting his sheep drift forward off of him some before you walk him up again, he will be in a position to come straight forward into the pressure more when he does walk up. He will be able to look up and actually feel where the pressure is-see the forest and not just a tree. If he slips off it when he first walks up, flank him directly onto it, stop him and then ask him to walk up. (Stopping him here is merely to "mark" the spot-to have him stay in that moment a bit to feel it more.)

 

Walk him up. Be sure you stop him again before he gets too close. His working too close is a habit now and needs to be broken. Make a point of doing this for a while on the fetch and on his drive. If he starts to slip around his sheep, he is too close. Stop him before he slips, let the sheep drift and then walk him up again. You will see him straightening out. There is one point towards the end of the video where this is happening and you do notice it. You stop him and the sheep drift. Watch when he comes up-it is more direct.

 

You are not going to do this forever. Only until he gets into a habit of coming on directly. Once he is comfortable doing this, add a pace command before he gets too close. Let him go so long as he is keeping a distance and then stop him and start again once you have established his distance (which will differ based on the sheep you are working). You don't want to nag about a pace command while his habit is to be too close, because he has nothing to replace that old method of working stock with just yet. Teach him to be direct by establishing some distance (manually by you at first with a stop) and then add the pace back. You will find he will be able to go further and further directly without flip flopping before you have to stop him.

 

Once you have this in place, add some lighter sheep.

 

Another exercise I would try to help encourage him to cover sheep is bringing the sheep up to a fence. Have him come forward until they start to break. Encourage him to cover breaking sheep there. Encourage him to take initiative and have fun. He may be a bit behind and slow to cover but work with it.

 

Once he takes more initiative covering there where it will probably excite him, add a "command" to it. Not that you will command him to be responsive, but rather that you will mark this behavior "with a command". Then when he is fetching or driving and the sheep start spreading, you can use the phrase he associates with "covering" and know it is OK to, rather than a constant flip flop.

 

This way you are retraining his contact and then encouraging him as well.

 

Often the sheep that a dog like this works get trained to need flopping. This will help retrain the sheep to not need a dogs body to move them, but its eye.

 

I would also occasionally work a smaller number, say 3 sheep to get him more "on". It will also bring out his eye.

 

Also, try to deepen him out on the top of his outruns. If he starts his lift slicing, he is already starting out flopping. If he comes up deeper, he is in the correct place to start with that distance from the get go. If need be, shorten his outrun up and stand part way so as to help him.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Carol

 

PS It is nice to see green besides in Christmas decorations!

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Guest carol campion

[quote I would go back and retrain his and directness fetches and help him with is contact.

 

I just reread what I wrote. YIKES!

 

It should read "retrain his directness on his fetches and help him with his contact.

 

Also, to clarify something, when using a stop to artificially teach this distance, make sure you stop the dog before he is too close (and that is determined by when he slips off the pressure). Stop him and let the sheep drift, but don't hold him down until the sheep come to a stop. You want the sheep feeling him. Ask him up just before the sheep come to a stop so he learns to keep in contact and keep moving them. That way you will not take his power away.

 

In the beginning, this may need to be done a bit more til he and the sheep get the new idea. Eventually he will go for longer and longer keeping his distance with fewer stops because he will like how it feels to have the new control that comes through this directness.

 

Carol

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Hey, I can translate. It's worth it - I always enjoy your posts Carol - as I do the other experienced trainers who contribute. We're truly blessed here!

 

I like how you emphasize improving the dog's feel for the sheep. That's so key in so many early training situations, isn't it?

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Guest carol campion
Hey, I can translate. It's worth it - I always enjoy your posts Carol - as I do the other experienced trainers who contribute. We're truly blessed here!

 

I like how you emphasize improving the dog's feel for the sheep. That's so key in so many early training situations, isn't it?

 

 

Hi Rebecca

 

Thanks for the compliment. I enjoyed your videos too.

 

I think developing feel is paramount right from the get go. They can't feel their sheep properly if they are not working properly. My experience is that you can have a dog that is obedient and well trained that still natural if you keep a balance between the two. Take the schooling and apply it to situations where you can alter between the schooling and natural work and feel. Like on the fetch and drive. Sometimes you need to become mechanical in your training methods to help a dog get a point or fix something you inadvertently led a dog to believe you wanted. Often, a dog can make a mistake in translating what we want and as trainer, we need to keep our eyes open to make sure he is learning what we want and to be watchful he isn't learning something we didn't mean for him to learn.

 

Good example is not stopping. Many dogs truly believe a stop command is not a stop because handlers ask the dog to walk up before the dog has a chance to stop. So the dog comes to think that a stop is a take time command. Its fine if that's what you want, but be watchful in what you are teaching. That's when trainining gets to be FUN!

 

Dogs are always translating.

 

.

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Thanks Julie. :D I like to think he's a good dog most of the time :rolleyes: Most days are easier than some. Sometimes I stand there and just think.... Um ok where the heck did that come from and what the heck were you thinking lol

 

I figure he's my first sheepdog I have trained myself so we're allowed to be slow and have set backs. I just love the process and want to make him the best dog he can be with me! :D

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Hey! I have nothing more to add, other than thanks for the vid of the pasture--it's greening up nicely!

A

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