Would I be laughed out of...

[Soda-pop]

the ring if I brought a clicker to help teach my dog a "down" on sheep? No treats, just the sheep as a reward...

 

Anyone ever done anything like that?

 

Paige

[MaggieDog]

I honestly don't know if the clicker would work all that great using the sheep as rewards since you'd have to control access to the sheep, and hold and mark with the clicker. When I have worked Maggie on a down around sheep I've just used body language and a release to sheep, even though I use clicker to train a lot of other behaviors off the sheep. Just seems superfluous to me.

[kelpiegirl]

There are people who use clickers to train sheep work- I think Carolyn Wilke is one. The thing about sheep work, is that it is unlike any other "thing" a dog does. Even if you set the sheep as a reward, the dog will learn to look, seek you out for that clicker sound- which will take his/her concentration off what he/she is doing. Even a very well trained dog forgets everything when put on sheep to start. Work on a down at home and else where, and have your dog down far off the sheep. The clicker really isn't needed, if when your dog downs, you release him right away to the sheep- that's the clicker Besides, you will more than likely drop the thing as you chase after your dog

[juliepoudrier]

Clickers have their place, but it's not when training stockdogs.

 

J.

[Soda-pop]

Even if you set the sheep as a reward, the dog will learn to look, seek you out for that clicker sound- which will take his/her concentration off what he/she is doing.

 

Hm, interesting point, but couldn't the same thing be said for whistles or commands? They will look at your for the next command? (I know they aren't supposed to/don't, but it just seems like the same argument could be applied) All they have to do is hear the click, not see it. And couldn't I choose not to "reward" the dog until she is looking at the stock?

 

and, I think Juliepoudier answered my original question. I'll leave the clicker at home so as not to make a fool out of myself.

 

Paige

[kelpiegirl]

No, actually, they don't look at you. That's called being "off contact" with the stock, and NOT something you want. As for your original question, what Julie said, I just thought I would be more expansive in my answer Frankly, you might be laughed out of the field (not ring) if you did use one. But, again, I thought I would be a bit more gracious in my answer.

[painted_ponies]

the ring if I brought a clicker to help teach my dog a "down" on sheep? No treats, just the sheep as a reward...

 

Hi, Paige. May I ask why you want to use a clicker?

 

Have you had problems getting your dog to down in the presence of sheep? I think all of them do that, at least to start with.

 

I've used clickers myself on horses, cats, dogs, etc. and read a good bit of Karen Pryor's stuff on the subject. I'm not anti-clicker. But here's why you don't use them with sheepdogs (at least IMO):

 

The clicker, as you know, is a conditioned reinforcer. Not something the critter would work for on its own, but something one teaches the critter to associate with good things. Like us - we work for little bits of green paper. Not very exciting in themselves, but we associate them with all kinds of exciting things.

 

Why use a conditioned reinforcer? Lots of reasons, but the most basic answer is - so you don't have to keep providing the primary motivator of the work all the time. But when you're working sheep, you have the dog's primary motivation right there. Sticking a conditioned reinforcer into the mix is unnecessary.

 

So if the dog won't down, she doesn't get to work sheep. If she does down, then she does get to work sheep. Easy peasy. (Y'all will understand why I'm laughing at this last statement once you see my younger girl on sheep. I'll be the one without hooves on the bottom of the pile-up. )

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

When you ask for a down, and get a refusal, the next step is a bit of pressure of some sort - verbal usually - which "interrupts" work. When the dog cooperates, then they "get the sheep back" - that's the reinforcement.

 

There's two major problems with C/T. One is, it's too much of an interruption in itself. That can actually be aversive for the best dogs, for whom the greatest reward is to be left alone to work.

 

The second problem is that marking the behavior ends it. We want the dog to feel right the second she lets up pressure on the sheep, but also to understand that she's not to jump right up and push on them again when he feels like it. Not sure if that will make much sense, but you'll understand it much more as you get more experience .

 

What you can do with the clicker is teach the dog to be comfortable on her belly away from the sheep. It won't translate over 100% (down on sheep doesn't mean "get on your belly", it's more complex having to do with the dog's interaction with teh sheep). But some dogs that have had a lot of inappropriate pressure put on them, or who have a natural disinclination to lie down, need that little bit of extracurricular work. Remember to ask for downs away from your side, so she doesn't think the command "lie down" means, "come to me and lie down."

 

If she likes toys of some sort, you can use that to get used to the "pressure on/reward" sequence away from the stock. Have her lie down until you throw it, then up the ante to having her lie down and wait until after you throw it, then have her down on the way back with the toy (have another toy ready as a reward for that). Then have her down on the way to the toy, first right after she leaves your feet, then farther and farther until she reaches the toy.

[Soda-pop]

Hi, Paige. May I ask why you want to use a clicker?

 

Just wondering, really. It seems like, for my dog, who is not a super-herder, and soft, and not real confident, making things very clear and very simple for her would be easiest for both of us and one of the nice things about the clicker is it's clear.

 

Kelpiegirl, I know they don't look at you, or aren't supposed to (though I've seen dogs doing it--and subsequently getting in trouble), but I don't see how it's any different than looking for a click. The dog listens for the command, the dog listens for the click. They don't have to look at me for the next cue, the don't have to look at me for the next click. In fact, if they look, even if they did the behavior, you could not click that b/c it's wrong.

 

Thanks, Becca. That makes sense. She's a laying fool for her frisbee, but sheep, not so much. Persistence, without too much pressure b/c it freaks her out, I guess is the key.

 

Thanks for the responses, they were actually really informative.

 

Now, off to work, we have a huge adoption even today!! Wish us look and that we adopt about some of our 2 billion cats we have!

[kelpiegirl]

I don't know how to explain what I mean anymore, other than you just gotta get out there and do it....

(ps: I recently adopted a kitten from the shelter)

[juliepoudrier]

Soda-Pop,

I think Becca gave you a pretty good explanation. In the world of real working stockdogs (not those that play at it with dogs whose instinct may be marginal at best), yes, you would be laughed out of the field if you came along with a clicker.

 

Training a dog to work stock is about the dynamic between the handler, the dog, and the stock. While other implements are sometimes used, none are used to reward correct behavior. As others have said, the reward for correct actions is to continue working. And in the beginning I do let my youngster get right back up (at whatever speed) as a reward for lying down (gears and better control can come later--the last thing I want to do is crank on a beginner dog so much that they don't "enjoy" the work). As soon as they learn they won't lose their sheep if they take that command then they become much more reliable about taking it. It's the sort of give and take that is the heart of training a dog to work stock.

 

If your dog is soft (and I started out with two very soft dogs), you can still get the message through to them, you just need to be less "intense" about it. While the down *is* important, it's not so important that your dog has to be 100% on it in the beginning when working sheep. If an appropriate situation is set up (and by that I mean that the sheep and training area are appropriate for your dog's level of training), then a stop/down probably isn't going to be hard to get because the sheep will generally come to the handler and it won't be difficult to get between the sheep and the dog if you need to stop the action. That said, a down/stop isn't a 100% requirement for beginning dogs in my opinion, and even a dog who is perfect off stock is likely to be anything but on stock the first few times.

 

By all means teach her lie down off stock and proof it as much as you like. But as long as you have an appropriate set up to introduce her to stockwork, whether she will lie down in the beginning then isn't as important. While control can be important, it's also important to learn to give up some control and trust the dog.

 

I hope that helps.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Another factor at work is, you can make things clear, by setting it up so that what you want is as clear as possible. You ask for a down when the sheep are quiet and under control and she's got them balanced to you (notice you have to work up to that point, and I suspect if you didn't work much on the stop with Jack, that Soda is not there yet). She's got to feel in control of the stock so it's not scary to give up a little of that. You have to make it easy for her to be right.

 

Also, make it super clear what you want by only giving one cue/pressure at once. Don't go towards her when she refuses. Say, eh-eh!, back up a step, let the sheep follow and give her more space (reset to zero), then ask for it again. You almost certainly saw Jack do this, but you may not have caught on that he was backing up as he corrected the dog.

 

This makes it difficult to be wrong because as you back up, you step into the space that the dog would enter if she decided to flank instead of stopping. If you go towards her, you open up more choices (flip around the sheep into the space you just left).

 

Sometimes it's appropriate to run at the dog, if there's a serious attitude adjustment needed, but it doesn't sound like that's the problem in your case. She just sounds uncertain.

[1sheepdoggal]

I couldnt get a stop/ down command on one of my dogs till she was about a yr old. She just wasnt comfortable doing it, on or off sheep. Try as i may, until she hit about a yr or a month or 2 older, she just hated it. I started her out teaching it to her at about 6 months, after a time I just gave up and gave her some time to grow up, and now she downs great. How old is your dog? Have you ever used a down or put her in a down to reinforce a command, or stop a bad behavior, or used it as a punishment? As in lye down there and stay while I clean up this mess you made? Try to see the reason she is uncomfortable going down, are you looming over her? Are you making the command sound like a correction? Is she a softer dog? Some dogs are just upright dogs, though thats still no reason for her not to learn a down. I would look for the reason she is uncomforable, and take a good over all look at if she takes you, and the training seriously. Some times it helps a dog to be crated for about 30 minuets before a training session away from everything, and especially you, so that when you take her out to work, she is much more focused on you as opposed to have been being with you all day playing and such. In other words, its good to get her mind set to work.

[Sue R]

You know, it's threads like this that give me an awful lot to think about. I must just look at things very simply and I'll be the first to admit that I am surely not a natural at understanding the handler, dog, stock relationship very well at all. Thanks for all these replies.

 

As for the clicker making something "very clear and very simple", I would tend to think that it would just muddy the waters in terms of stockwork, where clarity is based on the handler giving clear directions and understandable corrections with voice and body and correct timing. To me, something other than voice and body position, would be superfluous and therefore confusing or diverting rather than clear.

 

Of course, this is all coming from someone who bought clickers for use with basic obedience and agility, and has never been coordinated enough to use them successfully. I still don't understand why folks consider clickers to be more effective than voice responses.

[stockdogranch]

^^^^

What Becca said!!! What Jack showed you was the right thing--back up when you ask for it, and at this point, get her feeling her sheep, and don't focus so much on the lie down. It will come. In the meantime, yes, work on it away from stock.

 

Anna (an ex hard-core lie down person, who has very recently seen the light!) (thanks, Jack))

[SoloRiver]

I think a clicker and treats would be real useful if you wanted to train a dog with no talent or desire whatsoever to do something that looked sort of like working stock. Then it would be "obedience on livestock." But I also think there's no point in training such a dog to "work" -- I'd save my money and stay clean and do something the dog actually liked to do instead with that dog.

 

Sheepdog training is all about positive reinforcement and negative punishment, just like all good dog training. (Not to mention Premack's Principle.) But the behaviors you want are rarely specific and discrete enough to be marked with a clicker, and even if your dog did hear the clicker (which he's not likely to -- if he's any good) it's highly unlikely that you're good enough a handler to be marking exactly the right thing at the right time. What is happening between you, the dog, and the sheep is just too complex. I would personally never try it, and I use clicker training principles to train pretty much everything else.

 

It's not a stupid question, and it's one I had myself at the beginning. You would at the very least be looked at askance if you tried clicker herding, if not laughed at. It's not because herding people are "mean" or "punitive" or don't understand the basics of good training. It's because the methods they use work very very well at creating happy confident working dogs that are effective and responsive to their handlers. Isn't that what all good training is about?

[1sheepdoggal]

and stay clean

 

So true! Especially after coming in this morning after a night of soaking rain covered in muddy paw prints, and soggy muddy shoes!

[Pearse]

Just wondering, really. It seems like, for my dog, who is not a super-herder, and soft, and not real confident, making things very clear and very simple for her would be easiest for both of us and one of the nice things about the clicker is it's clear.

 

What you may want to look at first is whether or not you are being clear and inspiring confidence when you ask for the down (ie: why doesn't the dog want to stop?). You may find that the dog is not taking the down because it is worried about the sheep taking off. Use quiet sheep who will stop in font of you and work the dog to where it stops on balance naturally, then give the lie down command. Don't worry if the dog lies down. The behavior you are looking for is the dog not putting pressure on the sheep so as to move them. The reward for the dog is that it feels good that the sheep are balanced to you and not moving. You only need it for a second then move the dog and maneuver the sheep until they are balanced and stopped before giving the command again.

 

The word "command" is a misnomer in early training. Commands come late in the game, and the biggest mistake we beginners make is to think we can tell a dog, who knows nothing, to do something and it will. At the start of training, "commands" are markers. You set it up so that the dog does the right thing, and then you tell him that he did the right thing with the command. Only after understanding is there, do you make the command the instruction to do what you want. You make taking the command the comfortable thing to do, and ignoring the command the uncomfortable thing to do, but in the beginning you need to make the wrong thing almost impossible and not give the command until you know the dog will do the right thing.

 

 

Kelpiegirl, I know they don't look at you, or aren't supposed to (though I've seen dogs doing it--and subsequently getting in trouble), but I don't see how it's any different than looking for a click. The dog listens for the command, the dog listens for the click. They don't have to look at me for the next cue, the don't have to look at me for the next click. In fact, if they look, even if they did the behavior, you could not click that b/c it's wrong.

 

The command isn't the reward though. The absence of the command is the reward. Why? Because the dog gets to work the sheep. No other reward is necessary.

 

Let's say the dog is bringing the sheep on a line and you need the dog to turn the sheep. If, just before you blow a flank, the dog flanks over and turns the sheep, you don't need to mark that as a correct behavior. You let the dog continue to work. That tells the dog that it is correct.

 

If you blow the flank whistle and the dog takes it, again, no other reward is necessary than to let the dog continue to work.

 

If the dog doesn't take the flank, you use your correction voice which you have taught the dog in training means "take the flank or 'no sheep for you!'". Sometimes you need to reinforce that in training or at trials by stopping the work and taking the sheep away.

 

the other problem with clicker training for sheep work is that it would take a mighty big clicker to be audible at 600 yards, so teach the dog to expect a click up close and what happens when it gets out of clicker range?

 

Pearse

[Pippin's person]

You know, it's threads like this that give me an awful lot to think about. I must just look at things very simply and I'll be the first to admit that I am surely not a natural at understanding the handler, dog, stock relationship very well at all. Thanks for all these replies.

 

Can I get an Amen, Sister?

[Alaska]

Amen, Sistah!

 

I think a clicker and treats would be real useful if you wanted to train a dog with no talent or desire whatsoever to do something that looked sort of like working stock. Then it would be "obedience on livestock."

I think this is probably the essence of it. A clicker is just one tool in the trainer's toolbox, and part of being a competent clicker trainer is knowing when that tool is the right one for the job. And for border collies working livestock, it is probably never the right tool, for the reasons people above have given.

 

That said, if the OP is interested in why and how some people use clickers to train "those other dogs", I find this site interesting (several links given to relevant parts of the site):

 

Intro

Dry Work

Clinic Report (written by a non-herding clicker trainer participant -- follow the arrows at the bottom of the pages to read all three days)

 

Again, the idea of doing dry work with a border collie has been debunked on this board before, and I'm not suggesting anyone here try it. I merely offer those links for insight into how one might use the clicker at certain points in the process of teaching non-border collies to herd (in the AHBA or ACK sense of the word).

[GOOSEDOGS]

If you just used a clicker to stop the dog, if it was close enough, it could be useful to you to a point. BUT, a clicker doesn't have tones or different sounds. It can only click, so how do you give flank commands, walk ups,turn backs etc. You need a whistle that can carry far and change tones and sounds. I think that is what you were asking about when you said why can't you just use a clicker instead of a whistle. Joan

[Bo Peep]

Well, it's been awhile, but here's my .02 cents worth. A clicker is great for some things. Tricks, obedience, etc. but not on sheep. I think as young pups it's ok to put them in a pen, but as they grow into adolescence they must have a "down" on them. I took my dogs on a long line around sheep in an open field and would make them walk up and down.....walk up and down.. the foot is an important tool- LOL. Even if your dog has an excellent down, you can never trust them their first time on sheep and you first have to respect the livestock and secondly have to show the DOG how to respect the livestock. This is not a free-for-all fun time. I doubt any dog would even hear a clicker. They are so wound up about the sheep. Once they mature, it's a natural thing for them. There's my 2 cents from an old retired hard knocks sheepdog trainer. Best of luck!!!

[Soda-pop]

Well, it's been awhile, but here's my .02 cents worth. A clicker is great for some things. Tricks, obedience, etc. but not on sheep. I think as young pups it's ok to put them in a pen, but as they grow into adolescence they must have a "down" on them. I took my dogs on a long line around sheep in an open field and would make them walk up and down.....walk up and down.. the foot is an important tool- LOL. Even if your dog has an excellent down, you can never trust them their first time on sheep and you first have to respect the livestock and secondly have to show the DOG how to respect the livestock. This is not a free-for-all fun time. I doubt any dog would even hear a clicker. They are so wound up about the sheep. Once they mature, it's a natural thing for them. There's my 2 cents from an old retired hard knocks sheepdog trainer. Best of luck!!!

 

thanks everyone. this turned into quite a thread. whoops. Didn't mean to stir the pot.

 

we had a good lesson today and I didn't push the down yet and am working on having her get back from the sheep and made some real progress w/o her being a big baby and going to eat sheep poo. (remember, please--she's a rescue of dubious breeding). I did get her to down a few times w/o having to get all over her and I think her attitude is getting better. She really doesn't know what it means to have to do something.

 

Anna, you'd be proud, I was really trying to back up off her and let her have her sheep. I'm such a spaz and terrible handler that I'm not sure how effective I am but I'm learning too. I must be as patient with myself as I am with the dog, but as some of you know, patience is not my best virtue.

[Bo Peep]

thanks everyone. this turned into quite a thread. whoops. Didn't mean to stir the pot.

Oh, no pot stirred here. I'm sorry if I came over too strong. Very happy for you!!! With a "down" have you tried taking a step towards her once given the command and she doesn't respond, instead of repeating it?

[Soda-pop]

Oh, no pot stirred here. I'm sorry if I came over too strong. Very happy for you!!! With a "down" have you tried taking a step towards her once given the command and she doesn't respond, instead of repeating it?

 

that was usually my first reaction (been beaten into my head through other training DON'T REPEAT COMMANDS) so it's not really natural for me to repeat commands, but she would go off like "AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!" and pout and eat poop and I started to see a difference at the end of the lesson (i think--sometimes I think I just hope I see a difference and then see what's not there). I hope she's starting to realize that down doesn't mean fun is over, it just means it's on hold.

 

And no one came on too strong, it just turned into a two page thread.