agentm Posted December 3, 2007 Report Share Posted December 3, 2007 Hi- I'm new to the forum. In September we had to put our 3 yr old Border Collie (Cara) to sleep. She developed Epilepsy at about 2 1/2 yrs, was given exhaustive tests and ruled Idopathic Epilepsy. She was put on meds but they didn't ever really work. Her seizures increased as fast as her medication and one day she started non-stop seizures -we decided to put her to sleep. This was the hardest and absolutely most devasting decision I have made in my 59 years. She was such a kind and gentle soul. Like most Border Collies she developed an obsession with tennis balls and since I'm retired we played ball many times a day. She always had a ball in her mouth. I recently heard a vet on Fox news talking about lead poisoning in pet toys and the tested amounts being far greater than anything seen in kids toys. I looked up the symptons on canine lead poisoning and they included tooth decay, chronic diarehha and yes- seizures. Tennis balls from China may contain painted logo's and letters that may contain lead. I have no idea if there might be a connection but Cara had all these symptoms and was resistant to the medication.. because we still played ball??? In her memory I could not live with myself if I didn't raise the possibility with vets and in Forums like this just in the off chance that there could be instances of Epilepsy in this breed that are not genetic but environmental. Owners with tennis ball obsessed Border Collies --please ask questions of your vets-- there might be nothing to this but then again if there is and I can save a dog and owner from the pain we have felt then I feel justified in raising this issue. Dave Montalbano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Sounds like inherited epilepsy to me given that your dog was only 2.5 yrs old. I would be interested in seeing your dog's pedigree. If it was the lead in the toys we should see more BCs with epilepsy AND other chronic health problems caused by lead poisoning (given how obsessed they are) and we should not see such a strong inheritance pattern. It is very possible that the lead "causes" the epilepsy in dogs that already have the genes that make them more susceptible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agentm Posted December 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Liz you may be right but for some reason some Border Collies are drug resistant and the incidents of epilepsy in BC seems to be increasing. If you are interested I can email you the breeder and sire and dam info.... I had her evaluated at the UGA Vet school and they did the normal tests including MRI's etc. She declined so fast that the time it took for increasing her med dose couldn't keep up the the seizures which inexplicably became severe, clustered with very little down time in between and valium was becoming ineffective. Her last day was hours of almost non-stop seizures and administering three doses of rectal valium- taking her to the animal hospital and finally making the terrible decision. When you have so many seizures its hard to keep a log looking for triggers. UGA noted the worn condition of her teeth and she had chronic diarreha which had us changing her diet constantly..... again all sypmtoms of Epilepsy and lead poisoning. As stated this is a wild idea BUT I retired after 32 yrs as Federal Agent and good case work is looking at improbable leads and then testing them. I'm not a vet-- I also don't believe in coincidences. Even if lead is not responsible might it exacerbate the symptoms??? These questions should be looked at by competent medical investigators because the lead imported by China is a real event and not a supposition. Owners need to evaluate this information because why take a chance-- these dogs are precious-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 As stated this is a wild idea BUT I retired after 32 yrs as Federal Agent and good case work is looking at improbable leads and then testing them. I'm not a vet-- I also don't believe in coincidences. Even if lead is not responsible might it exacerbate the symptoms??? These questions should be looked at by competent medical investigators because the lead imported by China is a real event and not a supposition. Owners need to evaluate this information because why take a chance-- these dogs are precious-- How do you know the incidence is going up? Is someone tracking numbers? I would be very interested to see the pedigree info as the owner of a BC with mild epilepsy. Of course you need to follow all the leads, it would be irresponsible not to. However, I see far too many people blaming whatever cause is popular at the time for EVERY disease. Some people blame all health problems on commercial diets, some on vaccines and now we have contaminated toys from China. I just like to see a little more evidence first. Did you have her liver tested for lead levels on necropsy? If she did have lead poisoning I would certainly be looking all over for possible sources like paint, tools, fishing gear, etc. I have heard that there are now products on the market for testing lead levels in objects like children's toys. Maybe you can find one and test her tennis ball brand of choice? I would be interested in knowing about the levels of lead found in dog toys. When the pet food contamination problem was uncovered I stopped buying ANYTHING for my dogs from China, including toys, tennis balls and treats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agentm Posted December 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 [Liz- I don't have the answers to your questions.. thats the point. Her liver was tested to see how she was handling the meds but understand she wasn't on meds that long before she went into continuous seizures. Her liver panel was fine. All I know about lead levels is what has been reported. I will send you a private email with breeder info. I'm not blaming this on anything -- I'm trying to spur discussion. If there is no connection then great.... the Border Collie Epilepsy study at NC university may help answer some of these questions-- I hope they are successful. I've have corresponded with them and they are interested in dogs that are for whatever reason drug resistant- they appeared interested in this theory.... my source for the info on Border Collie Epilepsy was ACE (Abolish Canine Epilepsy) look at their website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agentm Posted December 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2007 Liz was able to trace my dogs pedigree and identify epilepsy in her line. Thanks! Hopefully research will identify the gene that makes some of these dogs susceptible to developing the disease and why some dogs are drug resistance. I'm having her toys tested for lead but it appears she was genetically predisposed to the disease. Thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted December 7, 2007 Report Share Posted December 7, 2007 Like most Border Collies she developed an obsession with tennis balls and since I'm retired we played ball many times a day. She always had a ball in her mouth. I recently heard a vet on Fox news talking about lead poisoning in pet toys and the tested amounts being far greater than anything seen in kids toys. I looked up the symptons on canine lead poisoning and they included tooth decay, chronic diarehha and yes- seizures. Tennis balls from China may contain painted logo's and letters that may contain lead. I have no idea if there might be a connection but Cara had all these symptoms and was resistant to the medication.. because we still played ball??? In her memory I could not live with myself if I didn't raise the possibility with vets and in Forums like this just in the off chance that there could be instances of Epilepsy in this breed that are not genetic but environmental. Owners with tennis ball obsessed Border Collies --please ask questions of your vets-- there might be nothing to this but then again if there is and I can save a dog and owner from the pain we have felt then I feel justified in raising this issue. Dave Montalbano Here's a link to a Fox news piece about lead in pet toys from China. http://tinyurl.com/3ddpbk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quicksilver Posted December 8, 2007 Report Share Posted December 8, 2007 Might interest you to look at a thread on a UK forum where coincidentally lead and seizures has also come up. 15 April 1008: Apologies - old forum no longer exists, new one at http://agilityforum.agilityaddicts.net/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted December 8, 2007 Report Share Posted December 8, 2007 I just really wonder if all the health problems that seem to be happening in dogs isn't due to a combination of factors. Genetics, yes, definitely. But also diet and environmental (including lead and the frequent combo vaccines). I try hard not to jump on bandwagons but I really shake my head at all the problems I see in today's dogs (mine and my friends) compared to the dogs of my youth when they ate crap food and were vaccinated yearly (though not with the combo shots of today). Something is going on. It'd be great to get some answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted December 8, 2007 Report Share Posted December 8, 2007 I just really wonder if all the health problems that seem to be happening in dogs isn't due to a combination of factors. Genetics, yes, definitely. But also diet and environmental (including lead and the frequent combo vaccines). I try hard not to jump on bandwagons but I really shake my head at all the problems I see in today's dogs (mine and my friends) compared to the dogs of my youth when they ate crap food and were vaccinated yearly (though not with the combo shots of today). Something is going on. It'd be great to get some answers. According to the veterinary neurologists I know, some dogs have the genetic makeup for a "lowered seizure threshold." These are the dogs who will develop epilepsy after being exposed to an environmental trigger. Littermates or close relatives may have the same genes and not ever seize because they are not exposed to the trigger. Some dogs have such a low threshold that even stress or excitement can cause an episode. Lead may very well be one of those triggers. One of my own BCs has a maternal grandfather said to have sired epileptic pups and I have found over a dozen relatives on his sire's side with epilepsy. He has seizures in response to many drugs and has had a few seizures with no obvious trigger. Thankfully he does not require medication and is for the most part a healthy dog. When he goes under anesthesia he has a whole team monitoring him just in case and goes straight to the ICU for recovery. ETA: I think the rise in dogs with epilepsy has to do with 1) the rising popularity of purebred dogs 2) the availability of treatment, allowing dogs with epilepsy to survive that would otherwise have been put down in the past 3) the internet, where news of an epileptic dog can spread fast 4) people's willingness to admit they have/had a dog with epilepsy and probably a lot of other factors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agentm Posted December 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2007 Great info everybody-- I'm running tests on Cara's toys this weekend and will post results. Thanks for sharing info--- Dave M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayaelena Posted December 10, 2007 Report Share Posted December 10, 2007 Wow, thanks so much for sharing. In September we had to put our 4 year old BC, Maya, to sleep. She also had epilepsy which did not develop until she was almost 2 years old. The vet never found a reason why she developed it, there was no apparent brain trauma nor was it coming from another illness. She also was a fanatic about tennis balls. We are still finding tennis balls that she hid in our home and outside. We have a BC puppy who is digging up her tennis balls in the yard! She would follow us around the house all night with a ball in her mouth, wanting to play. There were times she would meet us at the door with a ball in her mouth when we'd come home of an evening. Makes me wonder if the tennis balls had something to do with that?? By the way, her health issues that led to being put to sleep were not related to the epilepsy but she struggled for 2 years. At one point we thought we were going to have to put her down because she was seizing multiple times a day, every single day. She had grand mal seizures--very violent and long lasting with her not knowing where she was for hours afterwards. The vet introduced to us a liquid med he got from a pet pharmacy in AZ. It cost $80 a bottle but it calmed the seizures way down, she went from daily to maybe every few months. So sorry to hear about your baby but hopefully what you said will help others. Our puppy is a ball player and now I am concerned about allowing him to play with Maya's tennis balls. MayaElena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayaelena Posted December 10, 2007 Report Share Posted December 10, 2007 P.S. Another person made a comment in her reply about wanting to see the pedigree of your BC and how it could be inherited as your BC was 2 when this started. Maya was 2, also. We have become good friends with the breeder we got her from. Her mother, father, uncle and sister are all on site. None of them have seizures. We now take our new BC out there to visit "Maya's Family" so I see these dogs frequently. We took Maya to visit on a regular basis. Just wanted to add that.... MayaElena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted December 10, 2007 Report Share Posted December 10, 2007 MayaElena, I'm not an expert on the genetics of epilepsy by any means, but the genetic influence could occur further back in the line than the immediate family. Not trying to blame your breeder by any means, just wanted to note that the gentic influence could occur much further back and so be unknown to the breeder. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agentm Posted December 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2007 Test results were not clear... we went to target to get the type new tennis balls we bought in black mest bag and they had changed!!!! We bought them anyway-- tests on new balls negative. We got some of Cara's old balls and all but one tested negative... one weakly positive. These tests show lead in concentrations that are large. We tested some of the other dog toys we had and got a weak response on a colored rope toy, and on a cloth stuffed snake type toy they had as puppies. We just didn't save many of her puppy toys.... I don't think the results solved anything. Hopefully some vets somewhere with access to real testing equipment might get envolved. Thats what we need. Thanks everybody for the kind words and thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted December 10, 2007 Report Share Posted December 10, 2007 Where do you get objects like toys and balls tested for lead? regarding the pedigree issue. You also have to look at the width of the pedigree, not just what's listed as direct ancestry. Many pedigrees are "clean" of seizures unless you look at littermates in each generation. Then you find where it really hits the fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted December 11, 2007 Report Share Posted December 11, 2007 regarding the pedigree issue. You also have to look at the width of the pedigree, not just what's listed as direct ancestry. Many pedigrees are "clean" of seizures unless you look at littermates in each generation. Then you find where it really hits the fan. Exactly! I traced the epilepsy in my dog's pedigree back to grandparents who were healthy but have produced epilepsy. Because it is thought that epilepsy is caused by a combination of many genes your best bet is to look for siblings, half siblings, cousins, aunts/uncles, etc who are affected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Wild Child Posted December 15, 2007 Report Share Posted December 15, 2007 October 30th my 7 year old BC started having tonic-clonic (grand mal) seizures. After he began to cluster on November 28th I took him to see a vet school neurologist. After finding out that my Golden was also exhibiting seizure activity (partial complex and some GI related), one of the first things she asked about was lead. Both of my dogs lived in a 1950's house so lead could have been a causative factor. I think they used a urine sample on my BC and we just pulled blood for lead analyses on my Golden. Use of a whole blood lead test is what is also used in humans. Does not require much blood. The home lead test kits - probably not real accurate, especially to test toys. Liz D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 15, 2007 Report Share Posted December 15, 2007 I just really wonder if all the health problems that seem to be happening in dogs isn't due to a combination of factors. Genetics, yes, definitely. But also diet and environmental (including lead and the frequent combo vaccines). I try hard not to jump on bandwagons but I really shake my head at all the problems I see in today's dogs (mine and my friends) compared to the dogs of my youth when they ate crap food and were vaccinated yearly (though not with the combo shots of today). Something is going on. It'd be great to get some answers. I think another factor that we really have to consider when we're talking about "increased health problems" in today's dogs is the availability of advanced diagnostic tests and the willingness of dog owners to pay for them and for treatment of disorders that they uncover. My parents had an epileptic dog when I was a baby (yes, dogs had been domesticated by then), and it was PTS after its first seizure. The thinking was that the dog would have more seizures, they would get worse, and eventually it would die a horrible death; euthanasia was the kinder alternative. I think that in those days a lot of folks would have taken the dog out back and shot it -- not even taken it to the vet. I wonder how many veterinary neurologists there were in 1962? Was there even such a speciality? I could be wrong, but I don't think CT scans, MRIs, and so forth weren't even available in human medicine. Emergency veterinary care was available only if you knew the vet's home number or where he lived (most people did) and you happened to be able to get to him in time. Now, living in the relative boondocks, there are two emergency vet clinics within an hour's drive of my home, open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, ready to try to patch up the dog that gets hit by a car at 10 p.m. on Friday night. Again, something that would have been a death sentence around here as recently as 10 years ago. So I think that a big part of the health problems we're seeing in dogs is due to the fact that we're looking for them, and veterinary medicine has advanced to the point where it can do so much that we're frustrated by the fact that it can't do everything. Then there's also the fact that when dogs died, they often did so off in the woods and were written off as runaways. How many people of a certain age were told that Fido had gone to live on a farm where he could run and play all day long? I think some of it is also that, as children, we weren't aware of our dogs' illnesses and whether they were living to ripe old ages or not. I got my boyhood dog for my 6th birthday, and she was put down when I was a freshman in college, so she was about 12 years old. Her arthritis had become unbearable -- today we probably would have started her on supplements by the time she was seven, and gone to some sort of pain meds when she was 10 or 11, and it wouldn't surprise me if she outlived her joint disease -- either to be killed by something else or to die at an older age. Anyway, I'm not entirely sure that today's dogs are any less healthy than the dogs of our childhood. We're just paying closer attention and expecting more of them, and of our veterinarians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted December 15, 2007 Report Share Posted December 15, 2007 Anyway, I'm not entirely sure that today's dogs are any less healthy than the dogs of our childhood. We're just paying closer attention and expecting more of them, and of our veterinarians. Yes, I know what you're saying and those are good points. I'm just talking about the obvious problems such as chronic GI issues, allergies and seizures. We might not have known about displasia back in the 70's and you're right that arthritis pain was much more of a quality of life issue back then. I just don't recall dogs seizing or having so many problems with food. I don't think I'm looking back with rose colored glasses. The dogs of my youth were just basically healthy with none of the drama I see in my friends' dogs and my own today. Of course, most of us had mixed breeds and those with purebreds didn't tend to view the AKC as all that. So maybe the average dog's breeding was part of the average dog's apparent healthiness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted December 15, 2007 Report Share Posted December 15, 2007 I have to mostly agree with Bill. My parents told me stories about their dogs growing up. They didn't reach old age but died from being hit by cars, euthanized for illnesses like distemper, etc. They just didn't utilize vets like we do today. If they got sick they were PTS without much if any tests being done. (If they were lucky they got the needle and not the gun.) The one place I disagree has more to do with other breeds than with BCs. Some show bred dogs have become extremely inbred and are much less healthy than they used to be. I doubt that BCs, which have been bred for working ability and are rarely the victims of extreme inbreeding, are any less healthy than they used to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted December 15, 2007 Report Share Posted December 15, 2007 I have to mostly agree with Bill. My parents told me stories about their dogs growing up. They didn't reach old age but died from being hit by cars, euthanized for illnesses like distemper, etc. They just didn't utilize vets like we do today. Well, I guess dogs could have all died from being hit by cars, lost or to distemper before they showed signs of allergies, GI issues, epilepsy, autoimune disorders, etc. The dogs I knew were not killed by cars or distemper. They probably died a few years earlier than they should have due to being overweight and all the problems that come from that. But they were healthy until close to when they died. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 15, 2007 Report Share Posted December 15, 2007 I have very little contact with purebred dogs other than Border collies, but what you're saying makes perfect sense. It's one of the things I worry about when I see the sort of "flavor-of-the-month" breeding that goes on when a new dog is imported or wins a few big trials. When Shadow, my boyhood dog, died at age 12, I remember lots of people commenting on how unusually long she had lived. With Border collies, 12 these days would be on the low side of normal. The unsinkable Molly appears to be fixing to plod along through her 15th birthday next month, despite auto-immune hemolytic anemia, arthritis in her hips and shoulders, loss of vision and hearing, and most recently a seizure. I've been getting notes from folks who had dogs about her age that died recently; her mother died at nearly age 16, and a half-brother died at 15. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agentm Posted December 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 Lots of new articles on toxic pet toys etc on the net... http://ezinearticles.com/?Toxic-Dog-Toys&id=750713 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.