My First Time at the Post

[r b m]

Well, I had my first "run" at a trial this weekend, and I wanted to share with you. I let my dog eliminate and gave her enough time to get acclimated before our run. I did my best not to let her see the exhaust, but she did see sheep in awkward places due to some botched runs. To make a very long story short, my sheep were set before I could even enter the field. I introduced myself to the judge and then went to the pen, which is where he wanted us to cast. I lied my dog down in the come by position, sent her, and before my next breath, she had started to cross over. Yikes! This was the last thing I expected because she very very rarely does this. I lied her down just in front of me, gave her the command again and she still tried to go away, which is her "bad" side. By this point I just said forget it, and tried to send her away, but she looked lost and frazzled. I realized at this point, she didn't know where the sheep were and was looking for them where she last saw them come from. I retired and left the field, thanking the judge. Nerves got the best of me.

 

I'm a bit let down, but I'll get over it. I've already spoke with my trainer, but I wanted some thoughts from you as well.

[bcnewe2]

I just got a chance to read an article in the latest working bc mag. It's the one by Patrick Shannahan (sp? I'm not going to go look it up) on nerves and trialing. It's wonderful and I am going to get the book he recommends soon.

 

There's always next time. The only thing I might have done differently (and I'm only in Pro Novice so what do I know ) would maybe depending on how the trial was going or what the judge expected from RT's was to walk from the post and take your girl out and find the sheep. Then walk them to the exhaust. That way she'd have gotten to find her sheep and end on a good note.

 

Kristen

[r b m]

Yeah, that's exactly what my trainer said more or less. But I didn't know if I was allowed to. It was never really discussed in our handlers meeting, but every scenario can't be. I know I thought to as I retired, but was so flustered thinking a million other things, I wanted off the field. Lesson learned I suppose.

 

Here is that article, I read it last week too.

[kelpiegirl]

Well, that's one milestone right In-auspicious maiden runs sometimes DO bode well. I have a friend who's first run with one dog was a mess- circle/grip, and that dog turned out to be a several time over finalist...

 

As for crossing over at the first trial- I wouldn't be that concerned- and I probably wouldn't have tried to redirect, unless I thought she would for SURE fix it. I think Lucy did the same thing at her first trial- right at the beginning she crossed, but she was able to get her sheep- of course the fetch blew up in our faces, but that's for another time...

[juliepoudrier]

I too would have asked the judge if I could help my dog find the sheep and then start them toward the exhaust. At home I would work on getting the dog understand that she should look for sheep in whatever direction I am facing. I do this by walking toward the sheep and telling the dog to "look" until it's obvious that s/he as seen the sheep, at which point I send him/her.

 

I think it's certainly okay to ask the judge at the handler's meeting for N/N if you can retire and then go help your dog as long as things aren't going all to he**. In my experience, most judges will allow that at the N/N level, unless it's a really big trial that's pressed for time.

 

This past weekend I ran Pip and Phoebe in P/N at a trial (since I had to pull Lark). The course and sheep were a bit over their heads, so I asked the judge if I could retire myself and help them a bit if needed (this presumes that they aren't chasing sheep all over or otherwise having a bad wreck but just in need of a little assistance, and the other part of that is that it's not really a training session either, so you go out and help with the problem at hand and then take the sheep off the course). At this stage it's more about making sure they understand what to do and do it right than that we actually complete a course and get a score, IMO. On the first day, Phoebe's sheep bolted back to the set out after splitting just after the lift (she really ddin't know what to do to stop them). So I ran down the field to make sure she didn't start chasing or otherwise creating a mess and the set out person pulled them off the set out and gave them to us and we drove them off the field. So she had a good training experience even though the run was completely shot. And even though she had a pretty decent go on the second day, I still cut the course short on the drive to save what was sure to end in a chase scene (since she would have had to do a really big, hard flank to catch the sheep once they passed the panels and bolted for the exhaust--something she's just not quite ready to do) so that she could do it right and not risk losing her sheep.

 

J.

[r b m]

I too would have asked the judge if I could help my dog find the sheep and then start them toward the exhaust. At home I would work on getting the dog understand that she should look for sheep in whatever direction I am facing. I do this by walking toward the sheep and telling the dog to "look" until it's obvious that s/he as seen the sheep, at which point I send him/her.

 

Yeah, I'm completely Monday morning quarterbacking it. My trainer said we'll work on this as well as some distractions so she knows "not those... these" if needed. I do have a question though. My dog always sees where the sheep are set while training. Should we set them without her seeing them for our first go-around?

 

I think it's certainly okay to ask the judge at the handler's meeting for N/N if you can retire and then go help your dog as long as things aren't going all to he**. In my experience, most judges will allow that at the N/N level, unless it's a really big trial that's pressed for time.

 

My trainer told me to leave the post of my dog needed help or she was not listening to me or stuck at the top. We weren't really pressed for time imo, but I could tell everyone was tired... last day of a two day trial, and I was 3rd from last.

 

This past weekend I ran Pip and Phoebe in P/N at a trial. The course and sheep were a bit over their heads, so I asked the judge if I could retire myself and help them a bit if needed (this presumes that they aren't chasing sheep all over or otherwise having a bad wreck but just in need of a little assistance). At this stage it's more about making sure they understand what to do and do it right than that we actually complete a course and get a score, IMO.

 

This definitely makes me feel better and puts things in perspective. This also helps me relate what's going on when other people go help their dogs. I just figured since she was so close, I couldn't. On the flip side of this, there was this one handler, who a fellow student of mine mentioned had a temper tantrum the day before. On the last run, the dog screwed up and the handler ran clear across the field hootin' and hollerin'. Grabbed the dog by the scruff, lifting him off the ground while yelling at him. Just for a lie down. The handler was still steaming after the run too. 2 blow ups in two days, and imo I bet that dog will never respect that person.

[kelpiegirl]

Julie

When I read what the sheep did after the lift- I was horrified! Maybe that's not the right word, but how does one (dog) deal with THAT! They split and then bolt BACK to the set out? I have not seen that, I don't think many more advanced dogs could have gotten through that with aplomb!

[juliepoudrier]

Julie,

More advanced dogs likely wouldn't have caused the wreck in the first place, and if they did then I'd darn well expect them to be able to fix it and fix it fast (with no naughty behavior). I think the fact that Phoebe was tight and right on their butts is what caused them to split. She then focused on the single at first and that gave the other two the bit of time they needed to make their escape good. To Phoebe's credit, she did turn back after the two (I was running down the field by this point), but I stopped her because nothing good could have come from letting her try to get them off the set out pen (the set out dog had a tough enough time). So the split and subsequent escape was really her fault, and she just doesn't yet have the tools to fix something like that, although like I said, if her outrun had been right at the top and she hadn't barrelled in after the lift, it probably wouldn't have happened in the first place. Of course, as I said to someone at the trial, this is the joy of running pups--there's absolutely NO PRESSURE to do well--I'm just looking for good parts of runs. And that actually makes it more fun in some ways than running the open dogs.

 

J.

[KathyF]

Here is Patrick's article that just appeared in the latest issue of the WBC. http://www.patrickshannahan.com/CalmNerves.asp

 

Here is where you can order the book from: http://www.donblazer.com/books/ninesecrets.html I tried Amazon but they were all out of them.

 

There are a number of good books out there by horse people. "That Winning Feeling" by Jane Savoie comes to mind as I am reading it for the third time.

 

Another good one is "Think Harmony With Horses" by Ray Hunt.

 

Kathy

Edited November 12, 2007 by KathyF

[juliepoudrier]

On the flip side of this, there was this one handler, who a fellow student of mine mentioned had a temper tantrum the day before. On the last run, the dog screwed up and the handler ran clear across the field hootin' and hollerin'. Grabbed the dog by the scruff, lifting him off the ground while yelling at him. Just for a lie down. The handler was still steaming after the run too. 2 blow ups in two days, and imo I bet that dog will never respect that person.

I'm surprised the judge didn't say something to the handler. I wouldn't want to see that kind of behavior on the trial field. I saw more than a couple open and open ranch dogs that wouldn't lie down this past weekend. What they got was the sheep taken away from them (i.e., handler retired).

 

J.

[r b m]

Nothing was said that I know of. Some people were nervously laughing at him while he was running. Then after he grabbed his dog, it got kind of quiet. Someone tried to break the silence by saying something like "come on, it's no big deal" but it was. I may have a bleeding heart, but I'd never treat a dog that way. Especially afterwards, that dog had no idea what was going on or what he had done.... Anyway, Julie you're right, take away the sheep.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

About trying to get something out of a retire. Assuming it's allowed, if getting the sheep will actually save time (as in, we are closer to the stock and are capable of exhausting), I'll request that we do it.

 

I never let a dog work the sheep he's got, if the difficulty is with him just plain not listening. I not only say thank you, but apologize to the exhaust person that we left them out there and explain why if it seems there might be some misunderstanding. I had a dog previously, who would take advantage of me to the point that he wouldn't even listen while exhausting the next run, if I didn't "take the sheep away" during OUR run.

 

Dogs like that require really tough choices from novices, as I learned. It is unbelieveably miserable to move up to "ranch" at the Blugrass (called APN there), driving 14 hours and investing a ton in the trip and fees and whatnot, only to have to retire because your dog stopped listening after the turn at the post. Both days. Now, it paid off the next trial because we finished the course, though not brilliantly (an adjective I'd never apply to my handling), and he learned to play like a team member pretty well eventually. But there's sure easier dogs out there to start out trialing with.

 

How did I get talking about that? Anyway, I wouldn't fuss too much about a crossover. Just work on helping your dog take the cue from you where to look for sheep. A really fun exercise, if she's ready for something like this, is to work with a big group (twenty or thirty), have her divide them, wait till both groups have settled, then face the ones you want "Look!" and send her. Don't overdo this, but it's a fun way for her to learn "these, not those", an extremely practical concept.

[juliepoudrier]

Just an FYI, I don't see anything inherently wrong with a scruff shake--I've used it on a youngster who wouldn't quit chasing. I just don't think it's appropriate behavior at a trial. I've often thought that if someone will lose their temper and get rough in public (I've seen dogs kicked, and worse), then what on earth are they doing to the poor dog at home? I wouldn't fault a handler for running down the field to stop a dog that's not listening or even for raising his/her voice while doing so (I certainly shouted at Pip as he rode the backend of a sheep over the hill...), but then IMO the appropriate action once you arrive where the dog is would be to leash the dog and take it off the field = no more sheep.

 

J.

[SoloRiver]

I did the walk of shame twice at Fly's and my first Open trial. We survived. It'll be OK.

[Laurae]

So far, in all three of the "real" trials I have entered with Taz, he has run straight up the field at the sheep and done a lollipop outrun. This is in stark comparison to the nice work he's done at home (or, well, at the homes of the people I train with anyway). I actually think I now have figured out why this was happening, and I don't expect it to happen again, but it was pretty painful each time. Maybe you'll be more savvy than me and only have to make your particular trial mistake once (before moving on to different mistakes anyway).

 

That which doesn't kill the novice during a trial makes him or her stronger.

[Wendy V]

I have a little different take on the cross over. It is not to be ignored but to be learned from.

 

Can you think of why the dog crossed over? Were you reading the pressures wrong? It sounds as if you set her up for a left out run just because it is her best side. That thinking usually doesn't translate well to the trial field/arena. What was the dog trying to tell you? The trial course is a great teacher; brutally honest about the virtues of your dog and your training program.

 

Since I'm more experienced, I have learned to suffer embarassment well. I always approach the field with an attitude that I am there to help the young dog through the course. I retire at the first sign that the dog is over its head and leave the post to help. No need to stand helpless at the post while things fall to shit.

 

Good luck to you

[r b m]

Can you think of why the dog crossed over? Were you reading the pressures wrong? It sounds as if you set her up for a left out run just because it is her best side. That thinking usually doesn't translate well to the trial field/arena. What was the dog trying to tell you? The trial course is a great teacher; brutally honest about the virtues of your dog and your training program.

 

Yes, I did send her that way because of her best side. In fact most people sent away, but imo those who sent come by had better lifts. The draw was definitely to the exhaust to the left so I guess depending on how you know your dog covers will determine that. My dog wasn't trying to tell much of anything except "Holy moly! Who are all these people, why was I in my crate for 6 hours? Sheep? Where, where!?!" So I definitely need to work on keeping her calm and to focus on where her sheep are.

 

I think this experience will definitely make me "smarter" if anything a little more relaxed at the post knowing I can help my dog(or ask) as long as she's not running amok.

[Bill Fosher]

My best dog does horribly at trials. I need about a full hour before his run to settle him down. His mind is everywhere except where it should be: he's agitated, he's excited, he feels the need to introduce himself to everyone (canine and human). The last thing on his mind is finding the sheep. He figures that's no problem. He'll just find them when the time comes. And if not, he'll just go faster and faster until ... well ... until something happens.

 

If I keep him with me and let him watch and mingle and just speak to him calmly, eventually he gets the idea that this is no big deal, but he is never the same dog that he is when we're working at places other than a trial -- even away from home, which we do with some regularity. Perhaps if we were to go to more than two or three trials a year he'd start to be calmer at trials, but he's generally not a calm dog, so I think the difference would be at the margins.