Question about ISDS/KC joint registration and trialing

[Samantha J]

I have been wondering a few things lately and thought i would ask on here. I don't know what section to put this in, so please feel free to move it if it isn't in the right area.

 

If my new ISDS pup works out then i have found out his lines are Sydney Prices Davy and Aled Owens Ben. Since finding these out i have been looking for information and these names do come up.

 

This got me thinking about Holly and her ancestry. When i got her i wasn't interested in it really, i just wanted good temperament parents etc, a good breeder, KC at the time was very important too. I had not taken much notice of her pedigree etc. I remember the lady saying she had some working lines or dogs in the family but that is all i can remember.

 

I have been looking at her papers and Holly's Great Grandad is Ch Spot isds number 161819, also his parents are isds too Ch Cap 109820 and Ch Peg 125220. Then there is another parent to one of those . There are a few more isds ones listed too but the above ones are all red and so it should mean they are champions or something.

 

I have found the CH Spot on a list of National and International Trials Winners 1906 - 2006.

 

 

 

I have a few questions please if someone wouldn't mind putting me straight.

 

First if these dogs are ISDS but on Holly's grandparents does it mean they are also KC registered?

 

If so then it means that you can take part in ISDS trials then being KC registered?

 

If i am correct then i didn't think you could. I don't really see the point in dual registration or maybe i just don't get it. I thought KC was for your pet/conformation dogs and ISDS for the working ones. I did know we have dual registration as a few came up when i was looking for Zac. I don't understand really why though you would need to have both registrations?

 

I do think i am learning some now on this trialing/working side of the BC. Maybe Holly has got a little working dog in her after all.

 

Thanks

 

ETA - Oh just want to clarify after re-reading, i know the above dogs in Holly's line might not be great champs or anything, of course that doesn't matter at all, it is just nice to think Holly may have some working side in her. I know nothing of how good these dog's were. So i know they may not be very well known but it seems they were trialing at some time in their lives.

[SoloRiver]

Welllll, Spot was a very great champion, as was his mother, Peg. (Solo goes back to Peg on his dam's side.) Spot is common in pedigrees of KC dogs whose breeders wanted to add some working lines in, as Spot was heavy coated and very handsome, and tended to throw puppies that looked like him.

 

I have no idea about the dual registration question.

 

I believe that ISDS trials are just like ours, truly open -- open to any dog whose owner wants to pay the entry fee and try the course.

[Samantha J]

Thanks Melanie,

 

So really then your Solo is a distant relative of my Holly, Wow that is really cool. I am glad i wrote the names on now, i only put them on as this is the reason i was asking the questions really. I actually thought maybe people would not really know them.

 

 

I am fasinated by this ancestry now, it is more fun than looking back on my own!!. I didn't even notice that there were any ISDS dogs on Holly's pedigree before now. I didn't know what isds meant when i got her anyway.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I think you can't run in the Finals (ie, you aren't eligible for the Teams), but aside from that I believe as Melanie said it's wide open.

 

You can't register her back ISDS if she is not herself ISDS registered. But that doesn't mean you can't train and trial.

 

Ted's granddad is Wilson's Spot - so Holly and Ted are cousins once removed, or something. Ted's dad was definitely not bred for his looks, however. Melanie's right though - Spot figures in many "crossover" pedigrees of a generation or so ago. The amusing thing is that while Spot directly passed on some "pretty" genetics, he carried and passed on much that is probably plaguing the versatile breeders now - long legs, mismarks, curly or thin coat, crazy mismatched ears.

 

Congrats on the pup!

[Samantha J]

Thanks Rebecca,

 

So that may explain Holly's really long legs!! Oh yes and her one ear up and one ear down look!. Which actually i love.

 

Hey and she is related to your Ted too - Wow yet again.

 

Anyone got a photo or a link to one of this Spot?, i would love to see him. I don't know what colour he is, i am presuming black/white but Holly's dad who is his Grandson was brown/white.

 

It is nice to think i could maybe train and trial then with both of my dogs in the future if i wanted. I didn't think i would have been able to with Holly as she is KC registered. We are definately planning on finding some next year to go and watch. Maybe thinking of actually doing it is a bit far out yet but it is nice to know i could.

[SoloRiver]

There's photos of Spot all over but for some reason I can't find one right now.

 

Holly's related to craploads of dogs since Spot was used quite a bit!

 

There's no guarantee that Holly will work, but it's worth a try. Even if she doesn't end up trialing, it's great fun and a wonderful bonding exercise for you and your dog.

[Samantha J]

There's photos of Spot all over but for some reason I can't find one right now.

 

 

I am going to try again and do a search and for Peg too, i want to see her too. I am so enjoying this, looking at my dog's history. I can't believe i have only just thought to check Holly and her family out.

[Samantha J]

Found a Spot photo, i searched worldwide this time. It is not a great photo but it is him i think.

 

##Spot ISDS 161819John H. Wilson, Scotland

 

 

Gosh he was a busy boy!!

[Laurae]

My Taz is a great grandson of Aled Owen's Ben...no Spot in his pedigree, tho!

[Samantha J]

That is strange as i was thinking that my Zac is going to look similar to your Taz. (Apart from my ones devil horns of course!)

 

No randy Spot there either i don't think.

[Laurae]

Yep, I think Taz and Zac may well look alike about a year from now

 

Of course, I had to go and find the pics you posted of Zac again, and in doing so I realized that View New Posts doesn't include the Gallery or the Coffee Break sections anymore! I guess this is a result of the big recent controversy, but I had wondered why the boards seemed so quiet lately! I just wasn't seeing half the posts!

[Samantha J]

I didn't know that, i don't use the view new posts very often. I did notice that the coffee break is only 4 pages long though now. So they must be deleted after then i presume.

 

Oh and the book section, now that will be handy, i must have some reading books on trialing before i go and watch some. I want to have a little bit of an idea whats what before i go. At least what to expect. So i hope for some good reviews on that type of book on there.

 

 

 

 

I did find a photo of Peg but it wouldn't let me copy and paste. I haven't found any different ones of them yet though, just the same black/white pic.

 

Spot may have a lot of offspring around but i am so amazed that Holly has relatives on here. I would never have thought she would have. Such a small world really.

[Journey]

First if these dogs are ISDS but on Holly's grandparents does it mean they are also KC registered?

 

If so then it means that you can take part in ISDS trials then being KC registered?

 

OK, I think I can keep this straight enough to explain. There is no reciprocal between ISDS and KC, however, the KC will accept ISDS dogs. Now, if a breeder continues to register in both then they keep the dual registration. What has generally happened though is they cross out to working dogs and do not register the litter with ISDS (or one of the parents isn't ISDS registered) then you loose you ISDS papers. There are a very few, Detania is one, breeders that have maintained their ISDS registration along with KC registration. So, the answer is "no" Holly's grandparents were not KC registered, their pups from a particular breeder went KC and the breeder didn't bother, or couldn't ISDS the litter. And in the regular trials they are open. There's only been 1 bitch to ROM with ISDS that was KC only registered in close to 35 years.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Check your lending library for Sheepdogs My Faithful Friends by Eric Halsall. Tons of cool pics and some details about your dogs' ancestors doings (besides breeding ). Or purchase it, of course!

 

http://www.bonnidune.com/relatives.html#Spot

http://www.trialdatabase.bravepages.com/peg_isds_125220.htm

[Samantha J]

Thank you both,

 

Journey - i understood it all except i don't know what ROM means?

 

Becca - i will definately be looking for that book, i couldn't get the second link up though - Peg, it took me to a page with sheep on but then wouldn't let me go any further.

[Sue R]

ROM is "Registered on Merit" or a way for a dog that is not registered with ISDS or ABCA, to prove its quality and ability and be given a registration number. It allows quality dogs/bitches that are otherwise unregistered or of unknown/unregistered parentage to be admitted to the studbooks "on merit" or proof of ability.

 

I don't know about the particular animal referred to above, but I do understand that only one KC dog has passed the current (soon to be superceded by a reduced test) requirements to prove its working ability and gain a full championship versus just a show championship in the KC.

[Samantha J]

Thanks Sue.

[Sue R]

Samantha - This is the link to the ISDS page on ROM, which explains what is required for ISDS ROM.

 

http://www.isds.org.uk/society/dog_registr...n_on_merit.html

 

The requirements for ROM for ABCA (American Border Collie Association) are a bit different.

 

http://www.americanbordercollie.org/ROM.htm

 

Both sets of requirements are designed to allow dogs of merit who would otherwise not be registerable, to obtain registration, be eligible for National level events, and have registration available to their potential offspring.

[Samantha J]

Samantha - This is the link to the ISDS page on ROM, which explains what is required for ISDS ROM.

 

http://www.isds.org.uk/society/dog_registr...n_on_merit.html

 

The requirements for ROM for ABCA (American Border Collie Association) are a bit different.

 

http://www.americanbordercollie.org/ROM.htm

 

Both sets of requirements are designed to allow dogs of merit who would otherwise not be registerable, to obtain registration, be eligible for National level events, and have registration available to their potential offspring.

 

 

 

 

Many thanks again.

 

Really then Holly will never be able to be registered with the ISDS. I very much doubt she is going to show any great working ability. If i do try some trialing with her, it will be more for the experience rather than any major competing. Obviously i am a complete novice with no experience at all and so even if i watch some and try some i will always be just a beginner really. It is good to know that Holly could maybe have a go if i wanted too though in future years. Who knows, i might quite like it all once i start sorting out whats what and see some real live trials.

 

It has been good for me to find this out, i won't pretend i understand everything as i don't but i know more than i did 6months ago and i do hope to educate myself some more. It is such a great breed and even if Holly never does any work it is really good for me to understand the BC more. So this is has all been very good for me.