Zoe moving up the ladder?

[Lunar]

Zeeke and Zoe have been getting snippy with each other more often lately - and it's because she's pushing her boundaries. They've always had an understanding of bone ownership - if it's in their mouth/paws, it's theirs, the other one can't take it and just waits. As soon as physical touch is removed, the other dog can and will come over and get it without issue. But lately I notice Zoe is trying to TAKE things from him. In a sneaky way, but she'll kind of creep over and get right in his face and try pulling the bone out of his paws. Then when he pulls back? She throws a snit at him. (A sharp, "HEY cut it OUT!!" from me always breaks it up immediately.)

 

She's also guarding things other than bones from him. Like the cats, and the bed. If he walks too close to the bed while she's chewing a bone on it, she growls. He, interestingly enough, ignores it and/or backs off. I've rarely ever see him push it.

 

So what the heck is going on? She's never been a complete pushover - she lets herself be pinned down, sniffled thoroughly, even chewed on the head by him... and she just lays there limp. But if he gets too rough she has always snapped back at him to tell him to back off, and he's always respected it. It just seems like the rules are changing a little bit. I highly doubt she'll ever be the top dog - she's far too submissive for that, she depends on Zeeke to be in charge. But she's re-drawing her little personal bubble or something. She's 2 1/2 years old... maybe she's just hitting that adult stage.

 

On a related note, after having a couple of bitchy moments at Zeeke today she tried guarding her bone from ME. I was less than impressed, to say the least. She got a quick reminder that you DO NOT DO THAT.

[flrpwr52]

Kya started doing a bit of this and I think it is because she is getting close to the 10 month old age and she is losing the puppy license. Some days she seems more tense and thus guards me, my bed, toys, etc.

 

I don't put up with this behavior so at first I started to step in between her and the other dog but now I have added "leave it" and this is working much better. There are times she doesn't want to "leave it" so off she goes to her crate. A little time out and away from the other dogs helps also.

 

When I see the posture starting is when I act and if she backs down I praise and if I have treats close by give those too. Good luck. I know how this can upset a happy home.

[Bordercentrics]

Pack dynamics are interesting, especially because they often don't coincide at all with the way that people think. I have a tendency to think it's unfair when Meg pushes Ruby or Molly around, seemingly just to demonstrate her alpha status. I've had to learn to go against my feeling and support Meg against the other two. This maintains the proper order of the house. The few times I yelled at Meg for "bullying" Ruby, both Meg and Ruby were unhappy. My default position now is that Meg is always right and the others are always wrong.

 

However, the ultimate alpha in the house is me. Ruby and Molly have to defer to Meg, but Meg has to defer to me. Meg knows when she's pushed it a bit too far, and she looks sheepish when I yell at her to knock it off - far different from the hurt, unhappy look she used to have when I mistakenly supported Ruby in a conflict between the two. I supervise and monitor the interaction dynamics of the pack, but I have a clear idea of the relative positions within it.

 

Ultimately, I decide what the pack order is, not the dogs!

[madvibes]

sounds like a very typical female border collie to me

 

guarding and establishing territory from another dog, while less than ideal, is understandable, guarding from you is unacceptable.

 

I'm assuming she's spayed and he's neutered, so let's take typical hormones out of the equation....but...

 

if you notice a serious change in temperament, you may consider having a thyroid panel done, as sudden shifts in behaviour are often attributed to low thyroid hormone levels. it could definitely just be adolescence, but keep an eye on it... if it gets worse, there might be a medical reason for it.

[Shetlander]

Ultimately, I decide what the pack order is, not the dogs!

 

I agree with this statement 100%. I used to let my dogs "work things out on their own" when it came to pack order and had success with that approach maybe half the time. The other half, I now feel had unnecessary stress and some very serious, dangerous outcomes. Quinn and my Lhasa are a terrible mix. Last spring, I was actually considering rehoming the Lhasa because I was afraid Quinn was going to do him harm at some point. I do think he'd be happier as an only dog, but his needs are so specific and tricky to meet that I gave up trying to find the right place for him. Instead, I really cracked down on any jockeying for position. I never allowed resource guarding but now I don't tolerate them even thinking about snarking at each other. That means that I intervene (if I'm alert and my timing is good) before we even get to the lip curling. Snipping, snapping, snarling, growling are not tolerated. Staring down another dog is not tolerated. One dog thinking he has the right to tell the other dog where to go or what to do is not tolerated. Stealing toys is not tolerated. Etc.

 

Life is much calmer and happier now that those two know there is no opprotunity for advancement for either of them. I own the house that shelters them, give them food and water and provide entertainment for them. In return, they need to observe and respect the limits I give them. They now are able to play together for brief bouts and otherwise generally ignore the other. It does take ongoing vigilence and intervention as needed from me. The Lhasa is always going to want to take over the world and Quinn is too smart for his own good sometimes. I doubt they'll ever truly like each other. But from now on, I am always going to let them no in no uncertain terms when they need to step back and accept that I am the only one in charge.

[kelpiegirl]

I believe bitches usually end up on the top. It is just nature's way If they can work it out without falderal, that's fine, if not, then don't allow aggression. If she insists on taking his stuff, and he lets her- we know who's boss. If you don't like this behaviour- tell her to leave it, and put her in her crate.

[Lunar]

Thanks for all the responses! I really appreciate it. It is interesting how some of you let the dogs work it out (as long as it doesn't get dangerous, of course) and others don't allow any jockeying for position. I've always been more of the "let them deal with it" frame of thought... in both my and my parents' household (where they have two females, one very bitchy one, heh) it's worked really quite well. I really thought my parents were going to have problems on their hands, but go figure, Oreo keeps the other dog in line and everyone's happy.

 

Luckily we only have issues over new bones.... very high value items. Toys and bones laying around the house don't cause any scuffles. Neither does their food bowls, which is an irritation because Zeeke will let her eat all of his food. (We have to crate them for dinnertime now, to ensure, you know, that he EATS.)

 

I think I read sometime in the past... that a dog's pack order is not always a set thing, that they can have one order in one situation and another order in a different situation? I think that's what's happening here. In most situations Zeeke is clearly in charge, without question. But with bones and toys he seems to let her get bitchy and snarky. It's confusing for us humans in the household.

 

Kya started doing a bit of this and I think it is because she is getting close to the 10 month old age and she is losing the puppy license. Some days she seems more tense and thus guards me, my bed, toys, etc.

 

I don't put up with this behavior so at first I started to step in between her and the other dog but now I have added "leave it" and this is working much better. There are times she doesn't want to "leave it" so off she goes to her crate. A little time out and away from the other dogs helps also.

 

When I see the posture starting is when I act and if she backs down I praise and if I have treats close by give those too. Good luck. I know how this can upset a happy home.

 

Thankfully Zoe does immediately back off if I say something... all it takes is a simple "leave it". Sometimes she'll try it again, but thankfully she's very reactive to my commands. She can go from bitchy with Zeeke to "Oh I'm so sorry mommy!" in .2 seconds.

 

Pack dynamics are interesting, especially because they often don't coincide at all with the way that people think. I have a tendency to think it's unfair when Meg pushes Ruby or Molly around, seemingly just to demonstrate her alpha status. I've had to learn to go against my feeling and support Meg against the other two. This maintains the proper order of the house. The few times I yelled at Meg for "bullying" Ruby, both Meg and Ruby were unhappy. My default position now is that Meg is always right and the others are always wrong.

 

However, the ultimate alpha in the house is me. Ruby and Molly have to defer to Meg, but Meg has to defer to me. Meg knows when she's pushed it a bit too far, and she looks sheepish when I yell at her to knock it off - far different from the hurt, unhappy look she used to have when I mistakenly supported Ruby in a conflict between the two. I supervise and monitor the interaction dynamics of the pack, but I have a clear idea of the relative positions within it.

 

Ultimately, I decide what the pack order is, not the dogs!

 

My husband and I took a while to get used to Zeeke's attitude with her. He obviously loves her and regards her as a pack member, but he can be quite rough in his general "showing her who's boss." He likes to play rough. And at first we were really nervous about it, thinking he'd hurt her. But after 2 years we're very sure Zoe can stand up to herself, if needed (if he's too rough and hurts her, she lets him know). But in day to day activities it sure seems that he likes to assert himself over her.

 

sounds like a very typical female border collie to me

 

guarding and establishing territory from another dog, while less than ideal, is understandable, guarding from you is unacceptable.

 

I'm assuming she's spayed and he's neutered, so let's take typical hormones out of the equation....but...

 

if you notice a serious change in temperament, you may consider having a thyroid panel done, as sudden shifts in behaviour are often attributed to low thyroid hormone levels. it could definitely just be adolescence, but keep an eye on it... if it gets worse, there might be a medical reason for it.

 

Haha, yeah, she's starting to act more like my bitchy Oreo. Guarding from me is absolutely NOT ACCEPTABLE. I made that pretty clear to her yesterday. I do NOT tolerate that, and neither does DH. We already have to deal with Zeeke's guarding issues (he guarded from us from the start, when we adopted him. He is FAR better now). Yes, she's spayed and he's neutered. Thanks for the reminder about possible health issues... so far it's just been small changes, like she's pushing things a little further and a little further, nothing outright weird.

 

I agree with this statement 100%. I used to let my dogs "work things out on their own" when it came to pack order and had success with that approach maybe half the time. The other half, I now feel had unnecessary stress and some very serious, dangerous outcomes. Quinn and my Lhasa are a terrible mix. Last spring, I was actually considering rehoming the Lhasa because I was afraid Quinn was going to do him harm at some point. I do think he'd be happier as an only dog, but his needs are so specific and tricky to meet that I gave up trying to find the right place for him. Instead, I really cracked down on any jockeying for position. I never allowed resource guarding but now I don't tolerate them even thinking about snarking at each other. That means that I intervene (if I'm alert and my timing is good) before we even get to the lip curling. Snipping, snapping, snarling, growling are not tolerated. Staring down another dog is not tolerated. One dog thinking he has the right to tell the other dog where to go or what to do is not tolerated. Stealing toys is not tolerated. Etc.

 

Life is much calmer and happier now that those two know there is no opprotunity for advancement for either of them. I own the house that shelters them, give them food and water and provide entertainment for them. In return, they need to observe and respect the limits I give them. They now are able to play together for brief bouts and otherwise generally ignore the other. It does take ongoing vigilence and intervention as needed from me. The Lhasa is always going to want to take over the world and Quinn is too smart for his own good sometimes. I doubt they'll ever truly like each other. But from now on, I am always going to let them no in no uncertain terms when they need to step back and accept that I am the only one in charge.

 

I started stepping in when Zoe started stealing things from him and he was getting angry about it. Before that, because there was no issues between them, I just let them figure things out. But it's still hard to know when to step in and not. If a household has two dogs that are fighting aggressively I can certainly see that it would be a good idea for the human to step in and not allow any snarking, period. But yet in other households the dogs snark a little bit and figure it out and maintain peace that way. So it's hard to know. I guess I'll just have to keep a close eye on them.

 

I believe bitches usually end up on the top. It is just nature's way If they can work it out without falderal, that's fine, if not, then don't allow aggression. If she insists on taking his stuff, and he lets her- we know who's boss. If you don't like this behaviour- tell her to leave it, and put her in her crate.

 

Yep, that's pretty much it. I was really surprized when he lets her take his stuff right out from under him... even past her puppy months. But yesterday was really interesting... he tried to take his bone, he stood his ground and they got into a snark over it (I stepped in and told them to cut it out, and told Zoe to leave it.) Not 30 seconds later Zeeke got up and walked off without the bone, letting her have it. I think he was making a point to her. He didn't really care if he had the bone or not, he just didn't want her TAKING it from him. I frankly don't blame him, lol.