This can't be good in the long run, right?

[Guest jackieandryan]

Youtube.com Border Collies Frisbee

 

My question isn't concerning frisbee. My question is concerning all of the large jumps the dogs are making off of his body. Some of the jumps look to be as high as 4 feet. As neat is the video is, it just made me wonder what the long term effects will be on the dog's hips, knees, and legs.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I can't see the video for some reason so I'm assuming the dog in question is full-grown and healthy.

 

Most activities are fine for a healthy, athletic dog as long as they aren't extremely repetitive. Think of police dogs that are kept in a condition such that they can scale those big walls and other amazing feats.

 

The key is whether they are cleared to do these activities, haven't been pushed too hard at too young an age, and whether they are kept in condition without risking repetitive injuries - by lots of walking, swimming, and low straight jumps rather than the showy stuff all the time.

 

I had a young Border Collie who you couldn't keep from jumping that high after a disc. She's still working on a military base at almost the age of eleven, so if you manage them right it doesn't necessarily mean they will break down early.

[PSmitty]

They all appear to be adults, which is good. A big concern with jumping is starting them too young. Anyway, I admittedly don't know anything about disc dogs, but from my personal wussy point of view, all that high jumping would be worrisome to me. I don't think it's something I'd be comfortable having my dog do, but that's just my opinion and not based on any experience or anything.

[Pat W.]

Im not seeing a whole lot of high jumps but alot of repetitive jumping, that would be a big concern for me as an agility person, on young bones. Zak George, has posted alot of info on u tube on dog training and as garnered alot of respect from things I have heard. The thing you want to remember for now with a young dog that when training a pup should never jump higher than its elbow, at age 1 Whim is still only jumping 12 inches.

[Shetlander]

ak George, has posted alot of info on u tube on dog training and as garnered alot of respect from things I have heard. The thing you want to remember for now with a young dog that when training a pup should never jump higher than its elbow, at age 1 Whim is still only jumping 12 inches.

 

I love his videos. He's a very talented trainer, funny and so cute with those dogs. My favorite video of his is "Sibling Rivalry." I think he's talked about training and keeping the dog's jumps very low until fully mature. The Disc Dog people that I'm familiar with really stress that.

 

Now, is all that jumping hard on a dog? I think it probably depends on a lot of things starting with the dog in question. I'm sure some like Rebecca's dog can take a lot more of that pounding than others. It's next to impossible to keep Quinn from leaping up after a Frisbee. A couple of weeks ago, he knocked some things out of whack at his last sheep lesson when he took a very hard tumble. 4 vertebrae were out of allignment and his elbow and hip were also affected. Right now he can't have his Frisbee or any of his bouncing balls because there is no way for him to play safely with them. In fact, he may be retired from Frisbee all together. I'll see how he recovers and consult with the vet. I do wonder how much of his jumping contributed to this injury and how much of it was this one particular fall. My gut says the jumping did not help.

[grenzehund]

Isn't the surface the dog lands on a factor? Grass (without surprise hillocks or holes) seems fine for an adult dog. The disc dog exhibitions I've seen were either on grass or foam mats. But I cringed when I saw "Sibling Rivalry" - who wants to leap four feet down onto a hard slick concrete floor?

 

Susan

[Liz P]

Healthy or not, grass or concrete, those dogs are pounding on their joints. They will develop arthritis faster than a dog that does herding, dog sledding, hunting, etc. Many of you will remember the dog who was reclaimed by Sweet Border Collie Rescue (Glen Highland Farm) because the owner pushed the dog too hard and injured his back as part of a performance show that included frisbee. Owners who compete in these sports must walk a fine line between keeping their dogs happy and keeping them healthy.

[Shetlander]

They will develop arthritis faster than a dog that does herding, dog sledding, hunting, etc.

 

That is certainly intuitive but I wonder what there is in the way of research. I've never been in the Disc Dog world, so can't say what precautions they take and how the dogs do in the long run. And Rebecca makes a good point about the importance of how such activities are managed. The dog she mentions is still active and working at 11. That may be more the exception than the rule, but not every dog who engages in Frisbee is going to wind up in bad shape, I'd think.

 

Many of you will remember the dog who was reclaimed by Sweet Border Collie Rescue (Glen Highland Farm) because the owner pushed the dog too hard and injured his back as part of a performance show that included frisbee.

 

I never knew the owner and only had that blog to go by but she sounded like she wasn't careful with Brock and pushed him way too hard. When he was injured, she made fun of him and seemed disgusted. That's based on her blog. As I said, never met her and after reading that, don't want to.

 

Owners who compete in these sports must walk a fine line between keeping their dogs happy and keeping them healthy.

 

I think that's true for any activity. I hear agility people say that obedience is harder on the dogs than agility because of the often poor surfaces that the dogs jump on (e.g., mats over concrete). I hear obedience people talk about how much more repetition and slamming down contacts there is in agility. And there is talk among agility people of how the top players push their dogs to the point of risking injury and early retirement. The other day, someone was telling me "herding people" (not sure what venue) don't care about whether the dog is injured and will work them at trials, sometimes on pain killers.

 

Hopefully people are using common sense, care and compassion when they do activities with their dogs, but unfortunately that isn't always the case.

[Liz P]

I think that's true for any activity. I hear agility people say that obedience is harder on the dogs than agility because of the often poor surfaces that the dogs jump on (e.g., mats over concrete). I hear obedience people talk about how much more repetition and slamming down contacts there is in agility. And there is talk among agility people of how the top players push their dogs to the point of risking injury and early retirement. The other day, someone was telling me "herding people" (not sure what venue) don't care about whether the dog is injured and will work them at trials, sometimes on pain killers.

 

I don't have numbers, just what vets and vet PTs are saying; that frisbee dogs break down first, followed by flyball then agility/obedience.

 

I have only seen one dog at a herding trial that was in pain, and it was called off the field by the judge and bystanders at the same time that the owner was trying to get the dog to come off the sheep. I don't know the story behind that, only that as the owner left the field she said she thought the dog had recovered and had been sound at home. I have, however, heard many, many sport people (frisbee/flyball/obedience/agility/etc) saying that they have to take their dogs to a chiropractor for regular adjustments so that they can still compete. I am sure there are people in EVERY venue that push their dogs.

[Pat W.]

Like any athelete you want to make sure that the dog is in good physical condition, that there is no under lying joint, bone, or ligament issues. Road work is important as well as showing a dog how to use himself over a jump ie ladder and or perch work, jump chutes for collection ect. Before and AFTER any type of show or training that involves alot of jumping, turning ect make sure theres good warmup and cool down protocol in effect

 

Surface is a HUGE factor even on grass if the ground beneath is hard the impact is far greater than if there has been rain off and on for weeks prior to training, trialing on that surface. I know that for me during a 3 day trial on hard ground my knees hurt so do my feet and Im just running, think how the dogs joints are. Yes they are designed to take a lot of impact stress but not over and over again in a drilling type situation.