Terminology Question

[Geoffrey]

So, I've been browsing the working section a bit and I've discovered if I am to understand any of what I read, I need a few definitions. Hopefully my ignorance will be forgiven.

 

 

 

What is the "exhaust" and what do people mean when they say the sheep are being "exhausted"? I have a feeling the normal definition doesn't apply here.

 

The "set-out" - is that just "setting out" the group of sheep that the handler/dog team will have to work on their run? I think in some of the trial videos I have seen, I can sometimes spot an extra dog or two waiting at the top of the field and keeping the sheep from escaping until the handler sends their dog?

 

"Flat" and "Slicing in" on outruns....I'm thinking this would be a dog that doesn't circle around behind the stock and comes in too close?

 

What does it mean to "lift" the sheep?

 

"Tight outrunner" ?

[Dixie_Girl]

Exhaust is when the sheep that have just been run, go off the field. Usually another dog has that job, but at some trials that are small and have few intrants, the person who just ran will also exhaust the sheep. Setting out is just that. Another person works the top of the field, getting the sheep out and holding them til the dog running comes to get them. The lift is just that, the dog getting to the sheep and get them moving towards the handler. I won't comment on running flat, cuz I had never heard that term before today on another thread and I am not sure exactly what the dog is doing.

[Pipedream Farm]

Flat and slicing in has to do with how the dog goes around the sheep. The path should be circular (or pear shaped in the case of an outrun); some dogs don't stay on this circular path all the way around to the backside of the the packet of sheep but instead turn in towards the sheep making their path "flat" or they slice off the top part of the desired circular path. This flat part could line up directly with the backend of the packet of sheep.

 

 

 

Mark

[Dixie_Girl]

Thank you Mark! It is what I suspected, but better to not comment than comment wrong!

[juliepoudrier]

Geoffrey,

It seems everything has been addressed except a tight outrunner. Since I used that term, I'll explain it. If you look at Mark's picture above, he's basically drawn an "apple- or grapefruit-shaped" outrun (round from bottom to top). The ideal outrun is pear-shaped. That is, the dog sets off at an angle from the handler's feet and on a trajectory that takes it in the direction of the sheep (picture a straighter line between the handler and dog in the picture, rather than the curved line that's there). As the dog approaches the sheep, it "kicks out" and rounds its path so as to get around the sheep without disturbing them. (You can imagine the sheep having a "bubble" around them. They will not react to the dog as long as the dog stays outside of that bubble--which can be large or small depending on the particular sheep. If the dog pushes against the bubble, the sheep will move. If the dog enters within the perimeter of the bubble, the sheep will likely react badly--they'll jump or run, or maybe turn and fight--all the things prey animals do when they feel threatened. A dog that reads its sheep well will put pressure on the bubble's edge to move the sheep without entering the perimeter of the bubble to upset the sheep.)

 

A dog who outruns tight would follow a narrower path to the sheep than the average dog who runs a pear- or grapefruit-shaped outrun. It's really subjective since the judge has in his/her mind a picture of an ideal outrun, and dogs that deviate from that ideal will be penalized. A dog who deviates on a narrower course will likely be penalized heavier than a dog who deviates on a wider course, for a couple of reasons, mainly that a dog running a narrower path is likely to disturb the sheep by being too close to their bubble. For sheep being held on grain or being held "tightly" by the set out person, the sheep may not react badly to the tight outrunner and so the dog "gets away" with being too close to the sheep. In other cases, as Melanie mentioned in another thread, the dog may be able to "get away" with it because it lacks presence to disturb the sheep (it incites less of the prey fear/reaction in the sheep and so can get closer before disturbing them). Judges do sometimes penalize a wide outrunner, but at a trial the wide outrunner eats up time by running further out than need be, and losing that time is often penalty enough (trust me, I know this to be true).

 

Ideally, as the dog is running out, no matter how narrow or wide, it should be looking in regularly to try and find its sheep. A dog should keep going out, getting wider as it goes, looking for its sheep, until it spots them, at which time, it should continue on its trajectory around behind the stock (to give room to that bubble) so that it can approach from behind to lift the sheep straight toward the handler. The straightness of the lift (the lift is the point at which the sheep acknowledge the presence of and are affected by the dog and the dog takes control of their movement) is an indication of whether the dog came in correctly behind the sheep. Border collies are gathering dogs, so their instinct is to bring the stock to the handler. If the dog is correct behind, the sheep should move straight off the set out spot *directly toward* the handler standing at the post. Because of various "pressures" or "draws" on the field, the dog may not have to be directly behind the sheep to lift them straight toward the handler, but rarely would a dog need to come in directly from the side to get a straight lift. Likewise, draws (areas the sheep wish to go) on the field might cause the sheep to take their first few steps directly toward the handler and then drift to the right or left. Being gathering dogs, the dog should compensate and correct the line to get the sheep to the handler, but often the dogs will allow a bit of drift and so it's the handlers job to direct the dog to produce the straightest fetch (the act of moving the sheep from where they were to the handler) possible. (In other words, left to its own devices, the dog might "give" a little bit to the pressure from the sheep wanting to "lean" toward a draw and while it will bring the sheep to the handler's feet, might do so in a more curved line. At a trial, you want the straightest lines possible, so the handler would flank the dog around to push the sheep back onto the straightest line between set out and handler.)

 

And I've probably described more than you ever wanted to know!

 

J.

[Pipedream Farm]

My powerpoint "free-hand" drawing skills with a mouse are not as good as I'd like.

Beyond that, the correct shape is highly dependent upon the distance between handler and sheep. The closer these two are, the more round the correct path becomes.

 

Mark

[juliepoudrier]

Mark,

I know you weren't trying to draw a pear-shaped outrun but were simply illustrating what was meant by flat on top or slicing, but since you were kind enough to post a drawing, it made it easy for me to use it as a reference in my explanation!

 

J.

[Laurae]

This is a bit of a tangent, but those of you who are open handlers--at what age would you expect a naturally tight-running dog to understand that he has to stay outside the bubble to achieve a proper lift? How do you encourage that?

 

(Taz is a tight-running dog, and as a novice I've made a bazillion mistakes in training him. This is the most serious flaw he has right now, and he often moves the sheep before he can get behind them. I asked about age because I am often told not to worry too much about it because Taz is still young.)

 

 

ETA: Never mind, I'll ask this in the thread about lifts, as it's turning more in a direction where this question might be relevant. Maybe.

[PSmitty]

The visual was very helpful Mark! Thank you for that, and Julie for your post, also. I kinda always knew what "draws" meant, but you made it more clear for me.

[Geoffrey]

And I've probably described more than you ever wanted to know!

 

J.

 

 

Actually, that post was EXACTLY what I wanted to know! Thanks!

 

The diagram was extremely helpful too (as were the other responses).

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I think stickies with terminology defined would be a great idea for these sections. Either that or with links to helpful sites like Little Hats and Maryland's Sheep adn Goat site.

[Dixie_Girl]

Rebecca, when I read that, my first reaction was a spurt of laughter. Why? Because it reminded me of when we were first teaching Jackson come-by and away and I kept getting them mixed up. In frustration, Carol Anne stopped the lesson, told me to follow her, and we went to the shed where she keeps all her livestock "stuff". She came back out with a pen and marked in large letters an "A" and a "C" on my hands so I would remember! I have not forgotton since! Glad she didn't have stickies!

 

But, I do think for the person just getting into this or maybe just thinking of doing it, it is a great idea. At least when they read posts about training, they will know better what the heck everyone is talking about! Great idea!

[Eileen Stein]

For those who don't mind reading a long post, there is a thread in the FAQ forum where I took a stab at answering someone's questions about how trials work, terminology, etc., that might be helpful.