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BC versus Aussie Nationals


kelpiegirl
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Hi everyone

 

Well, within one week, I got to see both the BC and the Aussie finals. The Aussie finals were held in New Jersey, which was a heck of a lot closer to me than Gettysburg- I also got to see a big black bear on the way there!

 

 

There is no relating the two, really. There are no outruns in this ASCA finals. There is a take pen, and a basic course, and then a repen- this was on the semi finals. I also noted that there were only 2 people who used whistles of any kind- for a stop. Lots of voice commands. There were cattle, sheep, and ducks. I only stayed for sheep/cattle.

 

The cattle were NOT dog broke, which made for a tough time for many of the dogs. When cattle want to head somewhere, your dog can't just zip in front and stop them, unless he is ready to hit- and at some point every steer had to be met by the dog. It was so much work getting the cattle to even pay attention to the dog, that time was wasted- the course, one person got all the cattle through all the obstacles. On the whole, I was ambivalent about these cows- should they have been a bit dog broke? One dog got kicked pretty hard- and was bleeding from the mouth. Poor boy trotted over to mommy, she checked him out, but then sent him back, and to his credit, he went back to work, albeit a little further off the stock.

 

THe sheep were from Raspberry ridge sheep farm, they were well dog broke.

 

 

My feeling about the two, is that there isn't much comparison in these finals. I believe it is time that ASCA raised the bar, and asked more of the working Aussies out there. I think an outrun should be in EVERY finals, of any herding breed. It is basic work. I also believe whistles would be of huge benefit, so the dog can't hear your stress- granted, this is a personal preference.

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I can't say agree on the outrun idea. Aussies are driving dogs not gathering dogs. While they can be taught outruns to some extent, I don't think that an outrun would be appropriate for testing an Aussie for "traditional" Aussie work.

 

We've had several working Aussies and they excelled at close work and driving, not gathering.

 

I do agree that there isn't much of a test in what I have seen in terms of Aussie finals, compared to what real working Aussies can do (or should be able to do). Too much breeding away from the work...

 

JMO.

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I think an outrun should be obligatory. If I have a working aussie, and I need my sheep brought in, I sure as heck don't want to have to walk out to the sheep, and give a flank and then have the sheep brought in by being driven. If my dog couldn't gather, I wouldn't own it- for any stock. The dog doesn't have to excel at gathering, they should be able to do it if needed. I have seen some aussies with very good outruns, so I don't think it is a stretch to ask it. With regard to the finals- maybe trying to be too much to everything, has weakened the breed in general, not to mention having qualifying legs in the stock work- you end up with people squeeking by to get that those legs.

 

I have to give kudos to these dogs working these cattle and not giving up though. It sure seemed very hard- as in the cattle just don't move off the dog, and it is also dangerous.

 

 

 

I can't say agree on the outrun idea. Aussies are driving dogs not gathering dogs. While they can be taught outruns to some extent, I don't think that an outrun would be appropriate for testing an Aussie for "traditional" Aussie work.

 

We've had several working Aussies and they excelled at close work and driving, not gathering.

 

I do agree that there isn't much of a test in what I have seen in terms of Aussie finals, compared to what real working Aussies can do (or should be able to do). Too much breeding away from the work...

 

JMO.

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When cattle want to head somewhere, your dog can't just zip in front and stop them, unless he is ready to hit- and at some point every steer had to be met by the dog. It was so much work getting the cattle to even pay attention to the dog, that time was wasted- the course, one person got all the cattle through all the obstacles.

 

 

the cattle just don't move off the dog, and it is also dangerous.

 

 

Welcome to the world of working cattle!

 

A

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Good working Aussies are more than capable of an outrun and good functional gathering. It may not be as easy to teach/create/develop as a well bred working BC, but for moderate work, at a moderate distance, they are more than capable. Mine could outrun about 200 yards nicely, and my best dog would sweep a 30 acre pasture clean like any good stockdog, regardless of breed.

 

And basically...lets face it...at a small to medium distance an outrun is just a flank. It may take longer to teach some dogs, and some dogs are more natural than others, but the excuse of a dog/breed can't outrun because its a "drover" is just that...an excuse....because if he can't flank he can't stop livestock or turn them. The lack of which renders the dog pretty much useless as a working stockdog.

 

I've been to a few :rolleyes: ASCA trials and the specialty thats supposed to be good work is goosing you cattle to a high trot, then the dog flying around to the front to shut them down. As a livestock handling method, this varies from wasteful of energy to suicidal. The point is to keep the cattle going the right way with the minimum of force needed, and not rile 1200 lbs of broodcow into a snorting gallop, then send 40 lbs of dog in front to head the train off. Just because the arena keeps the cows from heading to the swamp over the offending 40 lber does not make it good work, or work that should be valued to breed on. If the majority of Aussie breeders would get that...well, if wishes were horses.

 

I think the *worst* thing that ever happened to the Aussie wasn't the show ring, it was the testing of working ability in a primarily arena type setting. There are too many faults that are buried and encouraged when the fence continuely gets to save the day.

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I believe that all stockdog breeders should be intent on raising the bar. Most breeds just need to set a bar, however. A titling system is not a bar - it rewards mediocrity. I believe that was the Aussie's first mistake.

 

Lenajo is absolutely right. Even if they want to say the Aussie is a short range dog, I've seen good short range work involving cattle and outruns are still required. IF you want to get calves out of rough woods or a rocky embankment where the gas-powered vehicles won't go, your dog may need not only to outrun, but do it, and the lift, out of sight of the handler.

 

And if the Aussie is a "driving dog" as they say, then they should judge lines. Possibly not on the cattle courses, where lines are really difficult unless your cattle are well broke, but certainly on lighter stock. Cattle course could show the dog's ability to get them in pens, through chutes, and to other pens, and lighter stock courses could develop outruns, clean lifts, and stock sense on the lines.

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I believe that all stockdog breeders should be intent on raising the bar. Most breeds just need to set a bar, however. A titling system is not a bar - it rewards mediocrity.

 

Agreed!

 

And if the Aussie is a "driving dog" as they say, then they should judge lines. Possibly not on the cattle courses, where lines are really difficult unless your cattle are well broke, but certainly on lighter stock. Cattle course could show the dog's ability to get them in pens, through chutes, and to other pens, and lighter stock courses could develop outruns, clean lifts, and stock sense on the lines.

 

Like you said, even short distances need an outrun. Also, I wouldn't say that these things should just be for the lighter stock, these are very important with cattle too- how your dog outruns then approaches and lifts the cows will very often determine whether those cattle are going to move calmly for the dog, run, or want to fight. Cattle will take advantage of a weak dog, although well dog broke cattle are less likely to challenge, cattle that haven't been worked will often face up on a dog. Now sometimes this is just plain curiosity and if the dog walks up confidently they'll turn for him, though if the dog doesn't the cow may charge him, but cattle that have experienced coyotes will generally want to stomp your dog's guts out ask questions later. :rolleyes: Fight/Flight zones are very important.

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I was HOPING you would chime in Anna- can you talk more about this? I was just so frustrated for the dogs! How do BC's work cattle?

 

It's exactly the same, but totally different from sheep :rolleyes: What I mean by that is: you need to dog-break them as you make your way around the course (or when you first bring home new ones or whatever). The dog needs to work them calmly and quietly, but have big cojones in reserve. So when the calf comes nosing up to your dog, often in curiosity, the dog needs to hold ground, walk up calmly, use some eye, etc., and then when the calf doesn't turn away (as they often don't, having never seen a dog, and not knowing that they should move away from the dog), then the dog needs a nice, business-like nose hit, and then hold ground. No hanging on, no cheap shots, no racing around to the back end then, just a face-to-face close encounter that ends with the dog in charge. Generally, once the dog does this, then it has the respect of the cattle (it may need to do this to each individual in the group to convince them all). Pretty much after that, the cattle behave pretty well. The dog also needs a heel hit, nice and low on the heel, in case they stall out. Again, very calm and business-like.

 

In general, the dog will work closer to cattle than sheep, as cattle have more attitude than sheep, and need more reminding that they are to move for that little dog. It is my belief that a good cattle working BC needs to think a lot--and when to grip and when not to are best left up to the dog. I figure the dog is much closer to the encounter than I am, and knows what's transpiring in that relationship, so I leave that to the dog's discretion. A good cattle working dog uses that hit, however, as a last resort, using all other means to convince the bovine to move first. A dog that rushes in and bites just because it can tends to just piss off the cattle, and then it's all downhill from there. Like sheep--calm, quiet control of the stock is the goal. When a dog encounters fresh cattle, and handles them right, it's really a pretty thing to see. Makes people think they are "trained" cattle. In a sense, they are--only because in the ten minutes the dog is on those cattle, the dog has, indeed, trained them.

 

Yes, that getting behind and getting them going, only to rush to the head to impede the movement is considered "style" in ASCA. To me, it's pretty stupid stockmanship.

 

A

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I did see some of that action (the goosing and then running to the front). There were some good dogs, but some not good- some just bounced in front of and barked at the cows. The good ones were quiet, and once the cows were on the same page, gave them room to move. The other thing that I find different, is that they have 4 judges, and throw out the highest and lowest scores, and you can see your score per judge.

 

Good working Aussies are more than capable of an outrun and good functional gathering. It may not be as easy to teach/create/develop as a well bred working BC, but for moderate work, at a moderate distance, they are more than capable. Mine could outrun about 200 yards nicely, and my best dog would sweep a 30 acre pasture clean like any good stockdog, regardless of breed.

 

And basically...lets face it...at a small to medium distance an outrun is just a flank. It may take longer to teach some dogs, and some dogs are more natural than others, but the excuse of a dog/breed can't outrun because its a "drover" is just that...an excuse....because if he can't flank he can't stop livestock or turn them. The lack of which renders the dog pretty much useless as a working stockdog.

 

I've been to a few :rolleyes: ASCA trials and the specialty thats supposed to be good work is goosing you cattle to a high trot, then the dog flying around to the front to shut them down. As a livestock handling method, this varies from wasteful of energy to suicidal. The point is to keep the cattle going the right way with the minimum of force needed, and not rile 1200 lbs of broodcow into a snorting gallop, then send 40 lbs of dog in front to head the train off. Just because the arena keeps the cows from heading to the swamp over the offending 40 lber does not make it good work, or work that should be valued to breed on. If the majority of Aussie breeders would get that...well, if wishes were horses.

 

I think the *worst* thing that ever happened to the Aussie wasn't the show ring, it was the testing of working ability in a primarily arena type setting. There are too many faults that are buried and encouraged when the fence continuely gets to save the day.

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