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Help with Border/Lab Pup


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Hi:

 

I am new to the discussion forums and I hope I am posting in the right place. I have an 11 month old labrador/border collie mix pup that I adopted from a shelter at 3months. He is extremely intelligent and gorgeous but a huge handful. He bites and growls at me and my mother when we walk him on the leash. He gets along very well with other dogs, but also tries to bite them or put legs/tails in his mouth during rowdy play. He insists on putting the leash in his mouth and tries to play tug of war whenever we go for walks. I have tried bitter apple spray, but it's only slightly effective. I know he is still a puppy, but I really need help to make him a liveable companion. We went through puppy kindergarten and beginners obedience classes, but he gave me a hard time always jumping up and biting the leash/growling and generally not listening. How do I give him enough exercise? I'm coming to the end of my rope and really hope some of you border lovers can give me suggestions on how to handle my part-border pup. Thanks so much!

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Sounds like this dog is in charge--not you. You need to let the dog know that YOU are the pack leader. You'll get lots of posts, I'm sure, with various methods of getting this pup to not exhibit all of the various behaviors he is exhibiting. Some will suggest using treats, and some will talk about using a clicker. And I have no doubt that those methods have their place, but in my opinion, which is worth exactly what you're paying for it, those methods are better suited for teaching a well-behaved dog some cute little trick, or working through issues with a fearful dog, rather than teaching it discipline. I would suggest a basic obedience class (again) with a reputable trainer. Sounds like the one you went to didn't teach this pup anything much. At the very least, and I know I'll get lots of flak here from some, I would suggest watching/reading some of Cesar Milan's stuff. Lots of folks here on this list don't like him, but for this pup his methods are quite well suited. His main point is to have the owner/handler be in charge. At 11 months, this is not a case of him needing more exercise, but needing more discipline,

A

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Guest WoobiesMom

I don't think this has much to do with being a puppy or not being exercised enough, but probably has to do with him testing your authority. Puppy kindergarten and obedience don't really address this much. I agree the Cesar Milan suggestion, but I get flak for that as well. :rolleyes: Lots of people here recommend two books, Culture Clash and The Other End of the Leash as being very helpful. How do you correct him when he does these things? One trick for the leash tugging is to use a metal choke collar and attach that in between the collar and the leash so that when he tries to chew on the leash, he gets metal and it's not fun. I dealt with Woobie's nipping when he was 5-7 months by occassionally scruffing him and holding him down in a position where he was lying on his side until her calmed down, or immediately ending the interaction and going into the bathroom to ignore him for a few minutes. Sounds silly, but I had to leave the room or he would eat my legs! It was quite a pain for about 2 months. Alot of people here use time outs in the crate as a way of ending the behavior and sending the message that rough playing like that ends the play. Do you have a crate? If not, I can't recommend one strongly enough! Also, if he's growling at you and it's not in a play manner, I would spend my money on a personal session with a dog behaviorist if you can find one, they can watch your dog closely and give you insight into what's going on and how to correct it.

 

Good luck!

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To me it sounds like play behavior (can't be sure without seeing the body language), but just of an inappropriate type. I think you can teach him a "no bite" command or something like "leave it" to tell him you want him to stop biting the leash, but be sure to substitute something else for the leash so he learns to redirect his play onto more appropriate objects. You don't want to extinguish play, you just want to redirect it into more "acceptable" form - hence the suggestion to give him something that's "okay" to do as a substitute for what's "NOT okay" to do.

 

If your trainer isn't getting it about what the problem is, or isn't able to help you modify the dog's behavior, find a different one with whom you feel comfortable.

 

He's a puppy still, but he IS getting to an age where other dogs will start correcting him for his excessive rowdiness (if they haven't already). It's okay for you to do the same. Dogs are wired so that they can accept a correction from other pack members; that's how they learn. It's not wrong to tell the dog "Off!" when he's jumping on you, or "No bites!" when he's play-biting. He needs somewhere to put that energy, though, so give him an alternative behavior that will give him an outlet and/or earn him praise. When I taught my dogs "Off", I gave them "Sit" as an alternative (with lavish praise) since they could not simultaneously sit and jump up on me. So they learned that when they're excited to see me they run to sit (wiggling madly) at my feet so I can conveniently pet them. They forget once in a while, but even then I never get the body-slams I used to get (you know, when they run at you full-bore and then leap up and shove you with front legs extended stiffly, so it feels like getting hit by a middle linebacker.) When my dogs were learning, I had a toy on hand all the time (something I could stuff in my pocket) so I could re-direct mouthy behavior onto that, and/or use it as a reward for appropriate behavior (as one of my pups was extremely toy-motivated). We gradually morphed into other types of play (fetch or catch rather than tug-of-war, for instance).

 

Obviously there's a BIG diff between play-growling or biting and REAL growling or biting; the description you give (it being associated with play and walks, etc) makes it sound like your pup is doing the play version, but if you aren't sure, talk to a trainer. Obviously the training response would be different depending on which it is.

 

Good luck with this... it IS important to have a dog you can live with, and there are other people on the Boards who are better trainers than I who may be along shortly to offer more help.

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Ruger will grab his leash when we are on walks and tries to pull it from me. What he is really trying to do is walk himself. Depending on where I am, I either MAKE him quit or let him go. He is quite funny walking down the street with his own leash in his mouth. When a car comes I call him back and tell him to give me the leash. He gives it back.

 

I have done this as well. I have given him our Springers leash and let him walk her.

 

Border Collies can have numerous quirky behaviors. I will say this much, he never does anything that truely upsets me. When I am watching the St. Louis Cardinals lose a ball game and yell at the TV, you would think I just beat Ruger. He comes over to me with his ears down and tail between his legs. I have to explain to him that he wouldn't have missed the ball.

 

 

Doc: I have this rash on my arm. What should I do for it? :rolleyes:

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Stockdogranch: Cesar pretty much knows what he is doing. Most of the people he helps don't have a clue how to handle a dog. Watching Cesar is a life lesson on how to discipline dogs for unwanted behavior which translates into raising children as well. Kids and dogs are similar in many ways. Neither one should run the house. Someone has to be in charge and its not the dog or the 5yr old going by the toy section in Wal-Mart.

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Kids and dogs are similar in many ways. Neither one should run the house. Someone has to be in charge and its not the dog or the 5yr old going by the toy section in Wal-Mart.

 

:rolleyes: Which is exactly why I don't go to Wal-Mart very often! I agree totally!! But I know that in the past, suggesting that he might have a clue gets a LOT of people on edge here...there's another current thread called BRAT here with similar thoughts,

A

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Welcome! I agree that the pup sounds like he thinks he is in control. I would suggest NILIF as a place to start. He need you to be a firm and benevolent leader. I second the book 'The other end of the leash'.

As for the leash biting, maybe you could give him something to carry in his mouth, or ask for other (incompatible) behavior when he does it (such as a fun trick). Or try hot hot hot pepper oil on the leash. The bitter apple only works when it is wet, so you could try carrying it with you and spray the leash frequently.

Do lots of 'brain' work with him (teach him tricks, and work on your basics training sit, down stay, etc) it will poop him out and help create a strong bond with you. Keep training fun fun fun, I love the clicker and positive training and so does Hoku, he loves to learn.

 

And remember, he is in the throws of adolescence, the most challenging time. Most dogs at the shelters are around that age, for many of the same reasons you are going through. Be patient, be firm and loving, and you will both get through it!

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