Kennel Layout

[nobrabbit]

We have a 10-month old Border Collie that we have started training for working cattle. This is not my first Border Collie but it is the first one that we have decided to try and train for herding. Everything that I have read says that the dog should not be able to see the stock from their kennel. We have him in a small kennel that he mainly stays in only at night and we are getting ready to build him a larger one. Our problem is that our property is surrounded on 3 sides by pasture with pasture also across the street that are all filled with cattle. There is not a spot in our yard that he would not be able to see cattle from unless we surround the kennel with privacy fencing which I am not crazy about doing.

 

How detrimental do you think is it for the dog to "see" the stock when not working? Our pup is with cattle constantly as my husband takes him along most days when he is feeding/working with the stock and we also keep bottle baby calves in a pen in our yard that he has access to. I have read through most of this board and now I am not sure if so much access is good for him.

 

Thank you!

Nobrabbit

[Smokjbc]

Hello,

 

 

In my opinion, its very detrimental and for many dogs, almost cruel to have a well bred Border Collie constantly "on the job" without any escape from livestock stimulation. Some dogs can deal fine with it, others will worry and work the stock from behind the fence for hours. The other issue is that if your dog can "work" stock all day long on his own, why would he put up with the pressure you use to teach him his job? I had a lady come out with several dogs, working bred, but who basically had given them full run of the place including the ability to harrass horses through a fence. I worked 4-5 littermates or full siblings that this person had plus another littermate that she had sold to someone else. The one that was sold to someone else had no unrestricted access to livestock and had a owner who provided her with a structured life. Of all of those dogs, guess which one was the only one who was useful and took well to training? Of the other 4-5, the ones with unrestricted access to stock, only two wanted to work at all and it was a CONSTANT struggle to keep them from quitting whenever you put pressure on them. Why would they work with rules when they could go home and do what they want with no pressure at all? Lastly, if the dog has any tendency to be sticky or has more than a fair amount of eye- watching stock all day will increase any leaning towards stickiness.

 

If you can't completely remove the view of the stock, at least try to greatly reduce it. Watch for holes where the dog can "follow the action" from one spot to the other- better if you are going to have a view that its just one side/spot that doesn't allow for alot of tracking the stock through the fence. I hope that makes sense.

[nobrabbit]

Well, he is not actually working all day long. He is around cattle a lot but as a companion to my husband. When we get the cattle stick and his leash out that is the signal that he is actually going to get to work with the cattle and believe me he knows it! He is already very cattle savvy so I think it has helped in that way but maybe we should limit his exposure some. I had not thought of him just being around them as cruel. Thank you for the insight.

[Smokjbc]

Well, he is not actually working all day long. He is around cattle a lot but as a companion to my husband. When we get the cattle stick and his leash out that is the signal that he is actually going to get to work with the cattle and believe me he knows it! He is already very cattle savvy so I think it has helped in that way but maybe we should limit his exposure some. I had not thought of him just being around them as cruel. Thank you for the insight.

 

 

Hi,

 

What I mean by working all day long is that a well bred Border Collie that can see stock IS working that stock in his/her mind. Working all day long in a structured manner can be healthy for a dog- working on their own means noone is watching out for them that they don't over heat or get mentally stressed. Or develop undesireable behaviors, neurotic tendencies, frustration at being able to see but not get to the stock. I've seen some dogs that had to be taught it was possible to make contact with the stock, in their minds, they still had that fence in front of them. Just being around cattle is not cruel in and of its self- it is being left to his own devices without relief from his instinct that can be cruel if he is a very driven to work dog.

[Black Watch Debatable]

What Jaime said.

 

I've seen keen dogs get really crazy when their kennel runs are placed where they can see stock. I don't think that set-up is good for a dog's mind, and it can't be good for the joints when a dog is caroming from wall to wall of his kennel all day long. I remember one dog -- left with a trainer years and years ago -- that would spend every second jumping from the floor of his kennel to the top of his dog house and back down again, up and down, up and down, up and down, eyes glazed, tongue hanging... it was awful. (His kennel run was thisclose to the training arena.)

 

The trainers I know these days don't keep their dogs where they can see stock.

 

Along the same lines: I don't take my super-keen Lu with me when I go to the farm unless I'm pretty sure we'll be working. It may be "fun" for her to get high [and hyped-up] staring through the fence at the woolies, but it isn't healthy. "Working" sheep through a fence [even at a distance] is like crack cocaine to some dogs, and I don't want Lu to fry her brain that way even a little bit.

[nobrabbit]

Thank you both! You have both given me much to mull over and I appreciate it.

 

Nobrabbit

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

It's OK to have your dog around when you are doing chores and stuff (or at least I believe so). It's necessary for me, actually, since we have sheep all over this farm, which is small but I still hate hiking back half a mile to the house to get my dog. All but my youngest pup can walk off leash around sheep and that's helpful when you need a dog to do something really quick.

 

Working sheep through a fence (and that includes being able to stare at them from a kennel) is a different matter altogether. There's no "you" in the equation. It will break a dog of being useful, faster than just about anything. It's worth it to avoid that situation, however you can do it.

 

I have small kennels set in a garage. The dogs get plenty of "out" time so they are not more than very large crates for them. There's no doubt to them that what they are supposed to do in those kennels is chill out. The kennels we had before had solid sides made of plywood - they were eight by four feet so one sheet of ply made a visual barrier 48" tall. They could still jump and look over the barrier, and there was plenty of light and air that came in there, like a box stall for canines.

 

I decided in our newest kennel permutation to eliminate the jumping by making them 40" tall. We are extremely strapped for cash right now, so we ended up making them from hog panels - and I am actually very pleased with the result. They are not fancy but they are strong and airy and easy to clean.

[stockdogranch]

It's OK to have your dog around when you are doing chores and stuff (or at least I believe so). It's necessary for me, actually, since we have sheep all over this farm, which is small but I still hate hiking back half a mile to the house to get my dog. All but my youngest pup can walk off leash around sheep and that's helpful when you need a dog to do something really quick. wink.gif

 

I couldn't agree MORE!!! In fact, having them around stock but not asking them to work, as Becca says, like when you're just doing chores, etc. helps them learn to RELAX around stock, so they don't get all hyped up and crazy. They learn to be ready to work at any second, but relaxed if not asked to. She's right--it all has to do with whether or not "you" are in the picture. What's not good, as others have already pointed out, is the unsupervised "working" of stock through a fence or whatever.

 

Anna