let's talk outruns

[kelpiegirl]

Since there are several young dogs in training with their owners, and we all hang on this list- can we talk about outruns?

 

 

First, what is the outrun on your dog like, what are the strengths/minuses? What have you found most helpful in improving (if they need it)? What about eye- anyone care to talk about eye and it's effect on outruns? Do dogs generall get wider as they get older, or is their cast set in stone as it were? Anyway, any information is greatly accepted!

 

 

Julie

[Laurae]

Ooo, outruns. My favorite topic. I have noticed something I'm curious about with Taz's outrun.

 

Background: I'm a novice, as is Taz, even though he turned 3 a couple of days ago. We've been working together for a couple of years, but with inconsistent training. Taz is a fast, tight-running dog whose tendencies have been allowed to form habits due to my noviceness (cluelessness in how to change things). He also has tended to overflank before doubling back to find balance. But I've been working a lot with him lately with a trainer and I'm pleased to say that he's now coming along nicely. Anyway, Taz's outrun is generally looking pretty good these days during lessons--he usually bends out at the beginning and then checks in with the sheep and adjusts his trajectory accordingly.

 

I've noticed, though, that he still runs very tight when we are in a smaller arena-sized area. I think this is because he feels more pressure within the smaller confines of a fenced-in area. Other factors that probably contribute to this tight running include just being in a new place and me handling him by myself, without my trainer there to "back me up" (she sometimes checks him with a "hey!" and my own "hey!"s are not always as effective). Besides trying to work in as many places as possible on my own, is there anything I can do about the way he responds to the space pressure?

 

Julie, I hope this isn't thread hijacking--I hope to get people's takes on this but I look forward to a broad discussion about outruns as well...

[stockdogranch]

I find that they do generally get wider as they get older, so I don't worry too much about pushing them out early on. I make sure they're square at the beginning (and hopefully at the top, too). I've seen too many dogs who are "fence runners"--they go as wide as they possibly can, so much so that they are too wide to be in contact with their stock, or in difficult terrain, they end up headed for the next county (I'm talking 600+ yard outruns at Open trials here). So in the beginning, I want them wide enough so as to not disturb the stock, but that's all.

 

I find that eye can certainly have an effect on the outrun and lift. Those with a lot of eye can be pulled in when they get about even with the stock. So they might need encouragement to go all the way around. Or they get really sticky on the lift (a personal pet peeve). Either way, when things are not going well at whatever distance you are working, whether it's flat at the top, or slow due to eye, or sticky on the lift, or whatever, shorten it back up to a distance that is going well. Work at that distance a while, then very gradually add more distance.

 

I won't really say much about the outruns on my young'uns, as I train them to be cattle dogs, and the outrun is a bit different (no stop at the top, maybe a bit tighter, as the cattle are less likely to bolt, and so on). On sheep, here at home, they are fine, but I do notice when I take them to the occasional sheep trial, that they really are cattle dogs (a bit pushy)...

 

Anyway, I just start short, so I can make sure the outrun is right (aquare at bottom and top, with a stop at the top), then gradually build from there...

Anna

 

ETA: I just saw Laurae's post...yes, arenas generally DO bring them in tighter...I like to do a lot of close work, taking the stock out of really tight areas, like little pens, etc. so the dog gets comfrotable going between the stock and a fence and being in close proximity to the stock and relaxed.

[Smokjbc]

First, what is the outrun on your dog like, what are the strengths/minuses? What have you found most helpful in improving (if they need it)? What about eye- anyone care to talk about eye and it's effect on outruns? Do dogs generall get wider as they get older, or is their cast set in stone as it were? Anyway, any information is greatly accepted!>>kelpiegirl

 

 

Hi-

 

Outwork is half the fun (driving is the other half- or it least it is now that I have two dogs that love to do it!)

 

My Nellie's outrun used to be straight up the middle- it took alot of work to get her to widen out. She widens out nicely now, to me, but most would say she is still too tight. She doesn't disturb her stock though. Her eye was very loose as a pup but she has alot more now, but has not had a single sticky moment in her life. She lifts cattle the same way she should lift sheep- except once they get going, she sometimes likes to light a fire under them. Sheep she gets even tighter on before she gets them going- does alot more back/forth wearing as opposed to using her eye but doesn't ever try to hurry them. I'd prefer she stayed further back and use more eye on sheep, but she always brings me whatever I send her after and will pen,drive and shed whatever I need her too. The more "tweaking" I've done to make her more presentable has actually hurt her ability to do her job so I stopped messing with her style and just let her be Nellie. Nellie is 7 and her outrun has definitely widened out with age (and eye increased too).

 

Jane was a natural outrunner from the start. I have never pushed her out- all it took was a down if she happened to go a little tight and she would square off on her own. She's fun to watch because she really watches her sheep as soon as she can see them and adjusts accordingly where Nellie is more of a "because I have to get out" outrunner. She has medium eye and doesn't stick on her lift but she does slow down on her away side and often needs an extra "swish" to get her around. She did take some time getting used to strangers as set out people, especially when wearing evil yellow slickers. Jane is 4, her eye hasn't changed but I would say that she runs too wide far less often now than she did two years ago. So she has tightened up a little as opposed to gotten wider but I think that is more a result of her confidence being much better now and doing more driving than outrun work with her helped that too.

 

The newest pup, Bess is still growing up- she is hard to figure out outrun wise- she watches her sheep but doesn't really adjust past where she's been pushed out too and when she lifts, its straight in craziness without any eye whatsoever . WHOHOOO!

[NorthfieldNick]

Nick is much like Laurae's Taz. He just turned 3, and I'm pretty sure he's had more training than I have He works fast and close, unless he's working ewes with lambs, in which case he keeps a nice distance (he must have been bashed by a ewe before I had him. My ewes are heavy, but they generally don't bash dogs).

 

His outruns start wide, but he cuts in real close the minute he gets around the sheep. Sometimes, if the flock is scattered, he'll cut off sheep, but that's getting much better. I'm usually able to stop him cutting in with an "Eh!" followed by sending him off again. His outruns are so bloody fast! In the beginning, I honestly think it was because he thought I was asking for speed. He was owned by a guy in Tennesee, who had a SERIOUS drawl! I'm from the midwest originally (and I do twang), but I talk fast and loud. Poor dog had to adjust to my voice. (I haven't tried the whistle yet...) I hope Nick gets wider as he gets older.

 

As for eye, well, I can't quite figure that one out. Nick isn't super strong eyed like my previous dog, who would get stuck staring at the sheep, but he's not loose eyed like my friend's dog who goes nuts trying to keep an eye on each and every sheep in the field. Nick is definitley a powerful dog- he has no trouble getting the sheep to move. Sometimes, he gets stuck in high-pressure spots (like penning the rams), but I think that has more to do with his lack of confidence than being sticky. I do that if I don't stop him at the top of the outrun, he won't stop at all. Brings the sheep right on in. Not a huge deal- doubt I'll ever trial, and he gets the farm jobs done.

[Guest pax]

I don't have anything to add because I've never done this, but I'm enjoying reading it so I'm bumping it up.

[Pipedream Farm]

I don't have anything to add because I've never done this..........

 

 

Yet, but it's coming.

 

Mark

[Guest pax]

Yet, but it's coming.

 

Mark

 

 

Let me get a personal trainer and start working out. I figure if I tell him I'm planning to run the Boston Marathon, I may get fit enough to keep up with my dogs.

[painted_ponies]

Let me get a personal trainer and start working out. I figure if I tell him I'm planning to run the Boston Marathon, I may get fit enough to keep up with my dogs.

 

Someone else who's never done this before (but plans to start soon). Since I figure Celia must be in pretty good shape already (love the new avatar, BTW ), how much of a workout should I be prepared for? Is it a good thing I gave up smoking?

[Guest pax]

Last week when Mark had me work Nash for my first time, he had me work for approximately 17 hours straight until I was blowing so hard I was seeing spots in front of my eyes.

 

(Ok, it was probably 5 minutes. It just felt longer because of that whole dying from asphyxia thing.)

 

Thank you, on the avatar, but that pic is old. 2001. I retired him that year.

 

ETA: I just realized the pic in my profile is the same horse, last year.

[Pippin's person]

Is it a good thing I gave up smoking?

 

There are probably two (at least) ways to think about that--either yes, so you can more easily run and stop the little so-and-so or no, because the nicotine might help you recover from the irritation of having to run to stop the little so-and-so....it's not so much of a work-out--unless you think that running up and down a football field full of thistles, dips, holes and other "challenges" is a work-out. You don't though, right?

 

I got some good advice recently when I finally just sucked up my pride and asked when I should be running at the dog-- knowing that there is no way to catch him anyway (because he's a little so-and-so). And plus, I sure don't want to run if it isn't necessary....

 

Our trainer said that you run at them if they are harrassing or chasing the stock. You run where they are headed so that you can possibly stop them before they run the sheep into the fence or somethign of that nature (which has to be the thing I hate and fear the absolute most in training. I just want to throttle the dog when that happens). You run at them if you can't get a stop on them. If the dog is too tight or about to slice in, then you lie them down and walk toward the sheep so that you can then push the dog out and around. Walking or running when they are in the down will tend to push them toward the sheep faster as they try to beat you and get away from the pressure. I don't know if I described that right, but my little brain could finally process what she meant when she described it that way. In my head I kept thinking that you have to walk to the dog to set the dog up again.

 

Pippin tends to be extremely tight on her outruns--and pretty much always tries to cheat unless she's made to be honest. She'll bend out if she's forced, but she is usually too quick for me to catch her and she won't lie down. She doesn't have a lot of eye and generally doesn't harrass the stock. She's not sticky on the lift, but she is sometimes sticky on the initial send. The trainer thinks that she might stick because she's trying to pull me in closer to her so that she can beat me on the outrun. I don't know if my precious little pup could be quite that diabolical and calculating....She also often gives up on long outruns and comes back to me. I love her to pieces...and she's about to become an agility dog once the puppy is up and ready to be trained (he showed some initial interest in sheep the last time we had him in the round pen, but mostly he still thinks they are S.T.U.P.I.D--except for their poop).

 

When they are clean, Hamish's outruns are nice. But, he sometimes crosses at the start--particularly if he's sent to the left. If there's a holder, he's been known to cross pretty close up to the stock. If he's tired AND there's a holder, he'll overflank or flank out so wide that he's out of contact. And like many young dogs (so I've been told), he slices in at the top--esp. if there's a holder. It seems like it's just miles and shortening up the outruns and making him be honest that work as the fixes. He is lucky that he can be sent to sheep school on occassion as after about the third outrun, my brain is often on overload and I just flail around saying words that come into my head. He's got a fair amount of eye, but doesn't usually get sticky on the outrun and lift. It's more on the fetch or other kinds of close in work.

 

Is it the case that dogs with eye get worse as they get older? We work to keep from developing the eye (we don't leave him in a lie down or moving the same direction for too long so that it doesn't develop), but it seems like just working the stock over time develops the eye--is that others' experience?

[juliepoudrier]

Walking or running when they are in the down will tend to push them toward the sheep faster as they try to beat you and get away from the pressure. I don't know if I described that right, but my little brain could finally process what she meant when she described it that way. In my head I kept thinking that you have to walk to the dog to set the dog up again.

Yep, a dog that's slicing will react to you running toward it by moving faster and slicing harder. And since most of us are *not* faster than our dogs, they will beat us every time. That's why the lie down and then you move between dog and sheep to prevent the slice. They get it eventually. Just remember if the dog is slicing that it can help to shorten the outrun to a more comfortable distance as sometimes pushing them too far too fast will cause that sort of thing. I think it also helps to work your dog close and work on its approach to the sheep because sometimes (maybe even often) slicing can be the result of an unconfident dog who isn't sure how to get its sheep moving. The slash-and-dash method generally startles the sheep into movement, and if the dog can be taught/shown that it can approach the sheep calmly and methodically (i.e., with confidence) and they *will still move* then the dog will soon learn it doesn't need to slice in to move the sheep. Last, many people with a tight outrunner will resort to "slingshotting" the dog--sending it from behind and the opposite side of the handler to the side it will outrun (that is, if the outrun is to the left, the dog will start out facing left, but behind and to the right of the handler). This sort of "fix" is really no fix at all as usually all it accomplishes is to make the dog run wider at the *bottom* of the outrun, while often exacerbating the tightness at the top. So you sorta have to wonder why people keep resorting to that method.

 

When Jack Knox started pups in the round pen, he started using a "get back" whenever they got tight. The pups learn quickly that "get back" means give the sheep some space. With Pip, when I've played with sending him longer distances for the sheep and he's started to tighten (generally because he's running uphill, which will draw them in), I can say "get back" and he knows that means to kick back and give the sheep room. So really it's all about getting the very basics right and then building on that.

 

As for widening with age, I think it depends on the dog. Twist has always been a very wide outrunner. Some may think she was taught to hit the fence, but in truth I didn't know enough at the time I started her to have either made her into a fence runner or, what I should have done, have taught her to come in and tighten her outrun when asked. I never minded it so much because as she's running out, she's constantly looking in for her sheep. A dog that is just blindly running a fenceline and not checking for sheep in the field is not a good thing, and those are the dogs who generally have been taught to run the fence. Anyway, she hasn't gotten any wider with age, but then she was always plenty wide to start with. In fact, when I got to Sturgis in 2005, our first year in open and our first finals, I was in something of a panic thinking she'd just take off and end up two hills back at the set out, but she came in on her sheep just fine, never running too wide. Go figure. The one advantage she does give me is that on large, difficult fields she's never crossed and never needed a redirect to get to her sheep. The downside is that the wide outrun, while useful for gathering large fields, eats up time at a trial. None of the pups seems to have inherited this wide outrun, which does run in her lines.

 

Lark started with a pretty normal outrun and I've just left it alone. Sometimes I do have to lie her down and redirect her. The pups started out as bowling balls (very unlike mom who went *around* the sheep from day 1) but have widened on their own without me having to get in there and force anything--they have just been allowed to work and figure it out. They are still what I consider tight, but they do go fairly deep behind the sheep, so at this point I'm just leaving them alone, except on the occasional times when I send them longer than normal and they look like they might revert to bowling balls.

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

Very cool stuff Julie- just what I was hoping for. Lucy gets goofy when we are close- as in too close. If I give her room, she just kicks into auto-pilot and behaves much betttr. Her outrun- she always has an eye on the sheep. She gets slow if I am on her too much. All sorts of things to learn. I haven't had square take offs- I don't know how to get them... So far Lucy will listen if I tell her get out when she is headed in too close- I hope that continues, because training is hard as she behaves differently when from long distances than short. I like the deepness of the lift in your dogs. It also looks like Pip is more responsive to you- typical boys- "am I doin' good mom? Am I?" Whereas in my experience with Lucy, it is more like "what do you mean I have to do that? I am too busy WORKING HERE!!!"

Julie

 

 

 

Yep, a dog that's slicing will react to you running toward it by moving faster and slicing harder. And since most of us are *not* faster than our dogs, they will beat us every time. That's why the lie down and then you move between dog and sheep to prevent the slice. They get it eventually. Just remember if the dog is slicing that it can help to shorten the outrun to a more comfortable distance as sometimes pushing them too far too fast will cause that sort of thing. I think it also helps to work your dog close and work on its approach to the sheep because sometimes (maybe even often) slicing can be the result of an unconfident dog who isn't sure how to get its sheep moving. The slash-and-dash method generally startles the sheep into movement, and if the dog can be taught/shown that it can approach the sheep calmly and methodically (i.e., with confidence) and they *will still move* then the dog will soon learn it doesn't need to slice in to move the sheep. Last, many people with a tight outrunner will resort to "slingshotting" the dog--sending it from behind and the opposite side of the handler to the side it will outrun (that is, if the outrun is to the left, the dog will start out facing left, but behind and to the right of the handler). This sort of "fix" is really no fix at all as usually all it accomplishes is to make the dog run wider at the *bottom* of the outrun, while often exacerbating the tightness at the top. So you sorta have to wonder why people keep resorting to that method.

 

When Jack Knox started pups in the round pen, he started using a "get back" whenever they got tight. The pups learn quickly that "get back" means give the sheep some space. With Pip, when I've played with sending him longer distances for the sheep and he's started to tighten (generally because he's running uphill, which will draw them in), I can say "get back" and he knows that means to kick back and give the sheep room. So really it's all about getting the very basics right and then building on that.

 

As for widening with age, I think it depends on the dog. Twist has always been a very wide outrunner. Some may think she was taught to hit the fence, but in truth I didn't know enough at the time I started her to have either made her into a fence runner or, what I should have done, have taught her to come in and tighten her outrun when asked. I never minded it so much because as she's running out, she's constantly looking in for her sheep. A dog that is just blindly running a fenceline and not checking for sheep in the field is not a good thing, and those are the dogs who generally have been taught to run the fence. Anyway, she hasn't gotten any wider with age, but then she was always plenty wide to start with. In fact, when I got to Sturgis in 2005, our first year in open and our first finals, I was in something of a panic thinking she'd just take off and end up two hills back at the set out, but she came in on her sheep just fine, never running too wide. Go figure. The one advantage she does give me is that on large, difficult fields she's never crossed and never needed a redirect to get to her sheep. The downside is that the wide outrun, while useful for gathering large fields, eats up time at a trial. None of the pups seems to have inherited this wide outrun, which does run in her lines.

 

Lark started with a pretty normal outrun and I've just left it alone. Sometimes I do have to lie her down and redirect her. The pups started out as bowling balls (very unlike mom who went *around* the sheep from day 1) but have widened on their own without me having to get in there and force anything--they have just been allowed to work and figure it out. They are still what I consider tight, but they do go fairly deep behind the sheep, so at this point I'm just leaving them alone, except on the occasional times when I send them longer than normal and they look like they might revert to bowling balls.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

The funny thing about Pip vs. Phoebe is that Pip does. not. want. to. lie. down. Phoebe on the other hand has a pretty good stop, though she's still more inclined to slice just so she can take a nip at a hock. I don't know if you noticed in the video, but every time I finally got Pip to lie down, he'd wag his tail at me like, "Gee, mom, did I do good?" Big goof ball. So I don't know that it's really that Phoebe is more hardheaded than Pip, but maybe she's still a bit more independent (or more freely gives me the doggy finger). Still given how awful they were when we started I am quite pleased with their progress. I've even let them do some basic chores (like take the rams out of their pen and push--relatively speaking since they don't drive--them out into the unfenced field to graze). I have difficulty because the puppy sheep are fine but almost too slow and heavy, but the next-step-up sheep (the cheviots and Coalie that Lark was working) are still too much because they are inclined to run, and the whole flock very happily takes full advantage of their puppiness. So we're sorta stuck with the puppy sheep for now. I just need to come up with little chores so they don't get bored with the circling, etc. (which certainly is boring *me* to death so likely is them as well).

 

As for square take offs, I guess it depends on your philosophy. Since the outrun is just a really big flank, and we want square flanks, then one would think you'd want the dog to square on the outrun, but doing so might actually make the dog run too wide, hence the perfect pear shaped ideal. Right now I'm not really worried about squaring flanks on the pups (though I should be working on Lark, and am), and when I do start on that, I think the "get back" command will work there as well. We'll see.... Of course my perfect dog would have square flanks most of the time, but would come in tight on command. Hmmm...maybe that means I need to *train* the dog that way!

 

J.

[Sam & Kathy Smith]

My female Casey, who is just a little over a year old, goes out wide on her outruns, gets past the sheep, then cuts in close. If we go away, she may keep on running past the sheep and be on their flanks instead of right behind them where she should be. When she does come in behind them, she blows right through them, splits them then gathers them up. I've been working on widening her, she is just to dang fast. We just have to keep practicing.

[kelpiegirl]

Lucy is also not a *fan* of lying down, but we are at least getting that to mean stop- or lay off. It is, I am told, a relationship problem Yes, I saw that about Pip- the waggy tail thing- but I take that more as a boy thing- the overt wanting to please- not every boy, but many are like that, just like many of the girls have *really* selective hearing, as well as their own agendas. I know what you mean about boring- Lucy has shown me that we have done too much drilling, and need to change it up, which we are. Square flanks are something that I saw was REALLY needed at a trial I went to recently. On runny sheep you just get into a foot race, unless you square off and let the forward momentum come down. Either that, or you need a *really* fit dog to cover. Lucy has yet to blow through sheep- she may push them over me- if I don't speak up, but not push through- thankfully. In trials, the outru- how is it judged? Does anyone *really* know? Things like out of contact with the sheep- too wide, too tight- how is it judged? It is based on the sheep, or some sort of standard?

Thanks

Julie

[juliepoudrier]

Re: square flanks on light sheep. This can be good and can be bad. If the sheep are just touchy, then yes a square flank will help keep the dog from putting too much pressure on them and causing problems. BUT, if the sheep are plain inclined to run, often square flanks and getting wider to release pressure just gives the sheep an avenue for escape (so you have to be able to make a quick judgment as to whether getting your dog off the sheep will in fact slow the forward momentum or whether the sheep will just use that to their advantage, as many trialwise sheep will). In fact, it's with sheep that are runners that I would prefer Twist to be less square flanking because she'd be able to head them off more quickly. But she's sensitive to pressure and will try to release it when sheep want to run, which unfortunately often gives them *more room* to run. (As an aside, I can remember running Jill at a trial where the sheep were going to run no matter what. I even just lay her down, and still they ran. So we ended up running through the entire course. It was something like an 8-minute course. We got to the shedding ring with 5 minutes left. That's not the way I like to do things. But some sheep are going to run no matter what.) Square flanks are lovely for the finesse you need at the pen and the shed, IMO, and certainly many times when working sheep in general, but I don't think they are always ideal on sheep that just. want. to. run. Just my opinion of course.

 

Judging the outrun is a very subjective thing IME. I think most judges have an ideal in their heads and then judge against that ideal. I had a dog who was a tight outrunner but *never* disturbed her sheep on the outrun. She was almost always docked 2 points, presumably to leave room for the dog who did the perfect outrun and didn't disturb the sheep. Twist is a wide runner. I've had just one judge dock her for running wide, and I know he's going to do it and that's that. Like I said in an earlier post, wide running dogs can eat up precious time, so hitting them on the OR probably isn't necessary I guess. The lesson there is that judges are more inclined to hit a tighter running dog (no matter what the sheep do, and of course if the sheep are being held on feed, then they may allow a tighter dog when they wouldn't if they weren't distracted, and so judges likely take that into account too--that is dock a tight runner if the sheep aren't disturbed but the sheep also have their faces buried in feed). I scribed for a judge from overseas who didn't dock any of the several dogs that day who started out by going toward the exhaust and had to be redirected. His reasoning? As long as they got out there, it was okay. I've also had judges dock dogs who didn't go all the way to 12 o'clock at the end of the outrun, even if the pressure was really heavy to one side or the other (in which case the dog is correct, IMO, to stop short or overflank to cover that pressure). The argument these judges make is that the dog should go to 12 and the "self correct" to cover the pressure. I think that the time the dog takes getting to 12 and then self-correcting to cover the pressure is all the time the sheep may need to escape. Anyway, you get the idea. Individuals have individual ideals. As long as the judging is *consistent* from run to run, it shouldn't matter ultimately. My philosophy is to try and get the best outrun (my ideal OR for that particular dog) on a dog and then stick with it, regardless of a particular judge's individual idiosyncracies. In other words, if I know a particular judge has certain likes or dislikes, I don't let that influence how I trial--I go out and do the best job my dog and I can and let the points fall where they may.

 

J.

[Shoofly]

kelpiegirl - FYI, the USBCHA guidelines are here -

http://www.usbcha.com/judging%20guidelines.htm

 

Like Julie said, judging is subjective and there are as many opinions as there are judges, but it's a good place to start to understand judging.

[kelpiegirl]

Sounds like sage advice Julie. I had thought the judging would be subjective- but in the end, you do the best you can with your dog, and as you describe in the lift- where the dog senses the sheep moving on- say, they just KNOW where the exhaust is, and don't even see the dog, hence start out for it, then your dog has to be able to what is needed to prevent that. So, I would be okay with my dog over shooting, if the sheep demonstrated it needed doing. Interesting stuff.

 

Also, the stuff about the square flanks and losing ground makes sense. So much goes into all of this- we simply must give the dogs lots of credit.

 

Julie

[kelpiegirl]

HOLY CANOLI BATMAN!!!!!!!!!!!! I didn't know there was THAT much deliniated in the rules. Looks like every possible scenario for points taken off a there. OY VEY.

Julie

 

 

kelpiegirl - FYI, the USBCHA guidelines are here -

http://www.usbcha.com/judging%20guidelines.htm

 

Like Julie said, judging is subjective and there are as many opinions as there are judges, but it's a good place to start to understand judging.

[Shoofly]

Not Batman, Robin.

[kelpiegirl]

OH MY GOD- talk about subliminal messages- I must have had your name in the back of my head- and you picked up on it. VERY funny.

Sort of made my day- as pitiful as that sounds!

Julie

 

Not Batman, Robin.