kelpiegirl Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 As I worked my girl yesterday, I employed the use of my arms to get my dog to back off my pressure. I think the passers-by were thinking I was an air strip landing attendant Anyway, it didn't work- nope, not at all. I will try again today.... Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Julie, I think the "traffic cop thing" is meant to be more of an attention-getting/quick block measure rather than a means to actually get the dog to back off, so that may be the problem. When used to get the dog to stop, it's a form of pressure that is *immediately* released (i.e., arms right back down) as you are backing up (also releasing pressure), and no, the dog doesn't always stop right away (in the beginning, if the dog even twitches an ear at you in acknowledgment of your action, that's success), so the motion may need to be repeated. If the dog is a youngster, it may even have moved into a position that's off balance by the time you've gotten your hands back down, so you would need to let the dog come back around on balance before attempting it again. I think if I were just trying to get the dog to back off stock, I would use a verbal correction (Jack Knox would just say "get back" as the pup was circling in the round pen, and often the voice alone was enough). Be careful of doing too much backing off mechanically--what you want is for your dog to learn to feel the stock and figure out where her correct place is in relation to them without you having to place her there. It's a slower way of going (in terms of visible progress) but the end result will be a dog who knows how to feel the sheep and react and adjust its pace accordingly. Hope that doesn't sound like just a lot of mumbo jumbo.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maizy Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Also, I would like to add that you will have an ill effect on your dogs if you are leaning into them. (Thanks to Robin I have learned a great deal!!!!). I used to lean over like a crazy woman and you really have to think of a lot of things when doing this...it isn't just arms in the air. It is sometimes arms in the air with a verbal correction as Julie said IMMEDIATELY backing off the pressure and dropping your arms. More of an attention getter which is what I need to do with Tess. You would probably need to see it work in person to fully understand how to use it effectively. It has taken me three Jack Knox clinics to really get things down but I'm pleased to say I actually got to work my own dog this last clinic for 2 full days so I must be learning something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Yup - it's not leaning and putting pressure on - it's attention-getting while letting pressure off and "giving" to your dog. So it's probable you have to "load" it first - accept small signals that the dog is "giving back", first, as Julie said. And as Rachel said, it's something that's much easier to show than to describe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 It occurs to me to add there's nothing really magic about arms. I tend to use voice in this context, too much really - but Ted gets too revved up by voice so I'm trying to remember to use body pressure instead for him. Rocky's the opposite. The main thing is the little hint that somthing's amiss, combined with an invitation to come on and do it right. As opposed to crowding the dog and/or the sheep in an attempt to get the dog out wider or force the dog to stop or slow. Does that make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 I actually think it's all shaping and positive and negative reinforcement. The hard part is learning which is what and being able to constantly read the dog/situation/sheep and make adjustments accordingly, sometimes minute by minute. Then you add in the interaction between the sheep and dog and how they're reinforcing and training each other, and it gets really interesting, at least to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maizy Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 And that is why I come to you, Robin, you have it mostly figured out and change when it doesn't work for a particular dog!!! You are very good at reading dogs and sheep and I'm trying to absorb some of that!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Awwww, where's the emoticon for blushing? I think that's part of what keeps me so hooked on this stuff. There's *always* more to learn and you don't know what you don't know until you know it. I think i'll always be a student of it, it just fascinates me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 What I didn't get the first, um, nine years probably and now have to pretty much start from scratch is what Robin was talking about, the interaction between dog and what you did and how you can interpret that and use it to go on to the next step. When the dog says, "Oh, I'm open for suggestions" and then you can . . .suggest. For nine years I just stood there like a dummy leaving my poor dog going, "And? . . ." Ok, still trying to fix that one. Rocky's really good with me in this regard - he'll stop dead when I give him a correction and I'll think, "oh, right, that's my cue, walk up!" Ted is going to make me a lot better eventually, but I'm playing catch up right now - when the brain static happens - Ted says - "No signal detected - default mode - chaaaaaaarge!" I'd love to just go and study people like Robin and Julie working for hours and it kills me that it's just a matter of gas money now. Well, and kind of time, but not really, since I could do a lot of what I do here just as well there. Or better. One of these days, however, if we can crawl out of this financial hole eventually, I will be bringing the Tedlet over there and inflicting him on you, Robin. Most likely regularly, if possible. [where's that evil smile emoticon?] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 I hope I never stop learning. Then again, when you're as novice-newbie at this as I am, seems like a lot of catch up. A lot of these things I can grasp intellectually, but it takes more time to actually put them into practice physically, and at the right time and in the right situations. Reading my dog, and reading the sheep is something I'm having to learn. I'm so grateful for the patience, compassion, and generosity of folks like Julie & Robin, as Robin says quietly (again... and again... as I bumble around) you're pointing it at her hip, not her shoulder... got her hip again... And then the generosity of Becca who lets all us newbs come up to her place. Thank you guys. Robin, I hope to get the Nickinator and June out to see you again very soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 As I worked my girl yesterday, I employed the use of my arms to get my dog to back off my pressure. I think the passers-by were thinking I was an air strip landing attendant Anyway, it didn't work- nope, not at all. I will try again today.... Julie I think Rachel has a photo of me and Nick where I look like I'm trying to impersonate the "Karate Kid". Not pretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maizy Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Ah, yes I do Laura and you forbid me to post it...gotta burn it to disk for you though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Ah, yes I do Laura and you forbid me to post it...gotta burn it to disk for you though. I do remember something about the threat of death or dismemberment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Now you guys are *really* making me blush! What I didn't get the first, um, nine years probably and now have to pretty much start from scratch is what Robin was talking about, the interaction between dog and what you did and how you can interpret that and use it to go on to the next step. When the dog says, "Oh, I'm open for suggestions" and then you can . . .suggest. For nine years I just stood there like a dummy leaving my poor dog going, "And? . . ." Ok, still trying to fix that one. What I think is hardest for people to figure out is how to scale back corrections. It's like one time you smack a stick on the ground or use a harsh voice and that's the way it keeps getting done, where the dog might only need a slight wave of the stick or what I calll a "reminder tone" instead of a harsh voice. If the dog gives to your correction, you need to reward him for doing that by scaling back to only the mildest level required as a way of rewarding the dog. It's that 2 way street of communication that's so interesting to me and so hard to explain to people. It really is all about positive and negative reinforcement, but on so many levels and in so many directions. Becca - my training buddy Peggy and I are scoping out new places to train and work dogs, so maybe we could work something out? I'd be happy to trade some suggestions for sheep and field time for a couple of dogs. And she has a Ted sister even. Laura - come on, any time! July is filling up with trials pretty quickly but June is still pretty open. How are those sheep doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maizy Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Gee - Robin...you aren't talking about me are you??? I do agree that part about scaling back the corrections is the hardest part for me...even more so than the timing of the corrections. However, at Becca's...I didn't have to give but a warning tone when he was quicken his pace!!!! See I do learn some things after a while!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Rachel - good on ya! Keeg's a good boy and working very hard to train you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Becca - my training buddy Peggy and I are scoping out new places to train and work dogs, so maybe we could work something out? I'd be happy to trade some suggestions for sheep and field time for a couple of dogs. And she has a Ted sister even. You all could come up here tomorrow and we'll have a litter weekend. We'll be taking Kit to sheep for his second time, Celia will be by with Nash, and of course we'll be working BJ & Nell. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Your forecast must be better than ours - it's going to feel like August outside, ugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Rachel, you are doing awesome. And Laura, too! Sometimes I feel this stupid urge to say, "Hey, wanna hear me sing a song? Or draw a picture? I can do that pretty good!" You know, as opposed to this that I can never get. That's really dumb, I know. Robin, I KNOW exactly what you mean but I can never DO it. I'm not stupid, but when I need to do the right thing by my own dog I just freeze. And then I DO feel stupid. I do hope you are welcome anytime, and of course you can bring your friend. I'd be delighted to meet another "relative." Wait, does she have the teeny weeny litter mate that Sam was going to take? Or is this another one? I've got a round pen, a couple of smallish paddocks, and an open field with about a 200-ish yard setout. Maybe more? We have it mowed regularly so it will stay short all summer. There's also a sort of interesting place where we can set sheep across a dam that I've always wanted to try. There's another place where you can hide sheep and practice a turn back. I've got a few pretty much (ha) puppy sheep, plus my wonderful (not) ewes, plus their lambs which are only lightly broken but have more leister percentage so they work pretty nice. I've been doing some field work with the replacement lambs and I love them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Sounds good to me, maybe next weekend? I'll shoot you off an email. Yep, the little one out of the litter - Liz. She's a cutie pie. "Robin, I KNOW exactly what you mean but I can never DO it. I'm not stupid, but when I need to do the right thing by my own dog I just freeze. And then I DO feel stupid." I know exactly what you mean, i still feel plenty stupid myself sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Next weekend we'll be in Hop Bottom. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Oh i meant that for Becca. Jealous me, wish i was going up there in my new camper! I'm so excited about it i can hardly stand myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Here's a post I've been saving for years that i just loved when i first saw it -- on the sheepdog list on June 15, 1997! I didn't write it but i think it's really true. --------------------------------------------------- When you're learning something new (job, sport, hobby), you'll pass through these stages. It's the way the human brain learns, and there's no shortcut around them: 1.) Unconscious incompetance ( you're not really sure what to do) 2.) Conscious incompetance (you know what you're doing wrong, but don't know what to do about it - you know the flanks, you know how to stop the dog, but you can't put it together - you're trying to make the obstacles and pen, but you're still missing them a lot and you don't know why) 3.) Conscious competance (you know what to do, but have to think about it - you can run a good course, but you have to waste a second or two thinking about your commands before you give them) 4.) Unconscious competance (you do the right thing automatically - you can do it without being aware that you're thinking about it - like driving a car) In other words, it's normal to feel lost at first! And you'll repeat the early stages a lot when the sheep and field conditions change. As you go to more and more trials, though, and practice, take lessons, and learn from your mistakes, you'll automatically find yourself moving up to the higher stages more often, and you'll notice it gets a lot easier. But it takes a long time...so hang in there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 OH MY GOSH ROBIN! I have been looking for that for YEARS! About ten years, apparently. . . .I saved that when I first saw it, then we lost our computer right afterwards and I lost it. I think I even posted about it but I forgot where I saw it - I think I thought it was on BC-L and got no response. That's really funny! I've been stuck at #2 for years, and not really knowing how to get any further. Although there are times when I can get to #3 doing different stuff. I even have #4 moments. Never when anyone's watching of course. You know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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