why did he do that?

[Liz P]

I was working another persons dog yesterday and he did something I have never seen. The flock was tightly packed in a barn and when I flanked him to bring them out I expected him to peel them out like every other dog. Instead he dove between their legs and popped up behind the flock then started pushing them out that way.

 

Why did he do that?

 

Should I have corrected him and done it differently?

[kelpiegirl]

Sounds like he is a pretty confident dude, and woud be very helpful in a race/chute!!!! Is he a BC?

Julie

 

I was working another persons dog yesterday and he did something I have never seen. The flock was tightly packed in a barn and when I flanked him to bring them out I expected him to peel them out like every other dog. Instead he dove between their legs and popped up behind the flock then started pushing them out that way.

 

Why did he do that?

 

Should I have corrected him and done it differently?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

In my experience, when the dog is diving under rather than flanking it's actually from a lack of confidence. But then, that's just been with my own dogs. I think the relative effectiveness or desireability of this manveuver would depend on the circumstances. A few months ago I was loading some ewes in a barn that was a bit of a nightmare in terms of the ewes being able to dash here and there to get away from the dogs. They jammed themselves in a single-file narrow race that was boarded up at one end. Cord was trying going over, and under, but they wouldn't budge. Finally I convinced him to go around, and they popped right out. I'm too inexperienced to understand why - maybe someone can comment, I'd sure be curious. But I'd always been taught flanking is usually preferable if possible, then after that the over the top dogs are helpful in very tightly packed situations.

[Lenajo]

diving under to run to the front is a good way to lose an eye, and yes, it is a sign of either lack of confidence/lack of understanding/frustruation about how to do the job properly. The dog needs to be taught how to push their way around the perimeter, or if the situation truly calls for it how to run down the chute on the sheep's backs.

 

So no, he doesn't need correction, just education.

[Liz P]

OK. I am supposed to go over there again tomorrow to clean the barn and feed the sheep. They are only checked and given fresh hay every few days, so when they see a human coming they run into the barn to wait for the food. When I am getting the sheep out of the barn what should I do to show the dog to go around the edge?

[kelpiegirl]

Gently take the dog by the collar and walk him up against the wall, and help him move them. If they are stubborn, you may have to take the whole trip with the dog, but most sheep will move off once you start the dog. As soon as they start off the wall, you should back up- use food as an attractant to the sheep if they are not dog broke. Make the dog feel that HE has done it.

 

I have to say I am surprized a dog would be considered weak when he goes right under the feet of the sheep- though, if their heads were facing away, that might make sense.....

 

Julie

[Maralynn]

I have to say I am surprized a dog would be considered weak when he goes right under the feet of the sheep- though, if their heads were facing away, that might make sense.....

 

I don't think I'd classify it as weak, just a lack of confidence and training. He's excited and doesn't know quiet what to do so he dives in and takes a cheap shot. In my very limited experience as my dog gained confidence and experience grips and cheap shots went way down. She still grips if it is needed or if she feels she's not quite in control of the situation.

[Liz P]

I obviously need to give more details here...

 

The flock is kept in a fenced in field with a barn. The neighbors have dogs and I think they come over to the fence because when these sheep see dogs the most dominant ewes will run up to the fence, stomp their feet, etc. When a person shows up with hay they run into the barn where they are fed. I needed to get the sheep out of the barn so I sent the dog in. The dog was initially trying to flank around them but the ewes in front were stomping their feet and trying to ram the dog. I didn't know if he had a grip command so just encouraged him to keep trying to push in, thinking if he needed to grip he would. Instead he dove under the sheep, as they were trying to stomp on him, and got to the back of the flock where the ewes who were afraid of dogs were hiding. As soon as he got there those sheep forced the rest of the flock out of the barn.

[Maralynn]

That puts a little different twist to it!

[Lenajo]

That puts a little different twist to it!

 

Not really, he stills need to learn to go around the perimeter of the flock, forcing as necessary, to get to the pressure point to flow them out of there. The pressure point it may well be the on the side, or he may have to go all the way back. What is important is that he stays out of the middle and moves around until the flow starts, then holds his ground. Important, first from a standpoint that it is a safer, calmer barn exit for the sheep, and then important because it is safer for the dog and the shepherd.

 

Driving the rear sheep over/into the center and front sheep isn't good stockmanship. If the flock was larger, or if the sheep were unevenly sized there would be trampling.

 

(I know Liz knows this and is not doing it on purpose!. I'm only mentioning because it's pertinent to the general discussion)

 

Also the dog would likely incite less aggressive moves by the sheep if he was focused on going around instead of sort of around/sort of at them/sort of wavering/then diving. Sheep know when the dogs appears weak (for whatever reason, inexperience or ??) and can and will assert themselves.

[Maralynn]

Got it! I do understand what you are saying and why. I was just picturing something a bit different when I was replying.

 

I have noticed with my dog that more experienced she got, the less confrontational she was and the more respect she got from the sheep.

[Liz P]

Yes, when the dog did that I almost had a heart attack. I don't want anyone to get hurt.

 

But, these sheep will not move out of the barn if a dog is not pushing them. I tried it and failed miserably So, should I take the dog by the collar and lead him around while giving him a flanking command?

 

ETA: The dog did not dive straight through the center of the flock, he did go around the edge but was between the sheep's' legs and unable to get any off the wall until he got to the less dominant sheep towards the back.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I see. Being out to the side puts the dog in a posistion where he can take pressure off if the flow starts - where if he were underfoot he'd stop the sheep in front of him - so he has no choice but to go right to the back and "pop" them out.

 

That makes more sense in the situation I was describing with Cord - the ewe in the back was extremely dominant and aggressive - when he flanked in he got the less aggressive ewes in the back to start turning and/or backing out.

 

And when a dog goes over the top, I'm imagining he can put pressure on the ones in the front without making the ones behind stall out?

 

ETA: I got Cord to go in on a flank by blocking him or vebally correcting him. It took quite a while but the alternative would have been dragging those ewes out one at a time by myself. You have to be careful when you are taking a dog in by the collar like that, that you are not blocking the sheep's escape yourself!

[Lenajo]

Liz its almost impossible to get the details of what you should do right without seeing what is going on. I'll take a stab at it, but you'll have to flex it with the situation at hand.

 

First you have to know the dog - first can he stand on pressure without backing down? *relaxed* on pressure, without flying in and out? Is this only the barn's close proximity or is this an overall problem with the dog?

 

If its an overall problem, the barn with these sheep may not be the place to fix this. You may need to use another dog - or go in with a stock stick and do it yourself, until the dog has a handle on the issue in less pressured situations. Then try again. Use half the sheep at first if needed, etc.

 

If it's only the barn and close proximity thats the problem, you can take the dog by the collar and take him to the wall quietly - just a a few steps in, then ask him to stand. Let him relax there, bite anything that sticks its nose at him. Try not to hover over him and make the pressure worse if you can, and after a few minutes when this is calm, ask him to flank another step or to and stop. Lather, rinse, repeat. Your body is first to get him in there safely, then as a calm "sorry, not this way" block. You must not hurry, and he must be allowed to defend himself. If he grips too hard, *be quiet*, disengage him with a body block if needed, and enforce the stop command calmly. If it goes to he** in a handbasket you must still be calm, just flank him around and put them back in the barn and start again.

 

Even if he has to go all the way to the back to deal with the problem, if he is in control of himself and the sheep from the trip around you can use the rear sheep to gently pressure the group forward. The leaders, if they were the problem, will rarely need this if they have already had a chance to move away from the dog as he was brought in.

 

Mud clear I'm sure.

[Liz P]

The dog will stand and face sheep without darting around. I've seen him grip on the nose if a ram charges him, but I have also seen him step aside then move back up if a ewe rushes forward then steps backward into the flock again. In my horribly inexperienced opinion I think he needs a grip command. I get the impression he thinks he is not allowed to grip.

[trailrider]

Sounds to me that the dog got the job done, in a confined area, not much room in a barn, and nobody was harmed. Good dog.

[kelpiegirl]

Yeah, that's my take on it too. Could have gone WAY wrong, but he figured it out the best he could.

Julie

Sounds to me that the dog got the job done, in a confined area, not much room in a barn, and nobody was harmed. Good dog.

[Lenajo]

Sounds to me that the dog got the job done, in a confined area, not much room in a barn, and nobody was harmed. Good dog.

 

Not good dog... just lucky shepherdess.

 

The end does not justify the means just because it worked "this time". Liz obviously knows that, or it wouldn't be concerning her and giving us all cause to have this discussion.

 

Dogs make mistakes, and you have to deal the cards you are dealt at the time when you are out there in real life. It does *not* mean the dog can't, or shouldn't, be educated to use it's ability and brains to do the same chore in a smarter, safer way for all involved the next time. Certainly it should not be lauded as a "good dog" just on the basis that nothing was hurt. Come on folks...this is *work*, not a blown agility run.

 

Liz, it does from here sound like he just needs to learn how to work close and that grips are allowed as the situation asks for them - not just on command. Working him close like I described should help, just be ready for a big overdone grip when he uncorks all that pressure built up from not feeling able to defend himself before. You can't overreact - even if it's so natural to do when they take a whole face. Just be ready to step in and steady him.

[Liz P]

I will try helping him to move along the wall tomorrow and let you guys know what happens.

 

On the same topic I guess... I have 2 pups out of my bitch, now 6 months old. I will be doing as much of the training myself as I can since funds are tight (vet student). From experiences like the one with the dog above I do not want to train the grip out of them. How do you walk that fine line between letting the dog know cheap shots are not allowed but gripping when the sheep are being aggressive is a good thing? While I do intend to trial my pups I have found greater pleasure spending quiet mornings doing chores than I do in winning ribbons. I want these pups to be reliable working dogs that will be by my side when I finally buy my own farm.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

You look at the result if a grip happens. Was the sheep allowed to turn back or did the dog's actions actually hamper the sheep from backing off? Hmm. That's hard to describe. I mean, a dog should grip if it's needed to change the animal's mind, but there should be an escape for the animal to "do the right thing."

 

In general, a young dog is going to be a lot more blunt about using the grip, but if I see the dog is trying to do the right thing, I don't get too excited. A hit on the nose is fine, even if I know the ewe might have turned without it for a more confident dog. They'll use other methods once they learn them.

 

If the dog is starting to hit more, or go for dirty shots, I start to wonder whether I'm doing something to undermine the dog's confidence - going to fast or getting in the way.

 

If you can, don't work your pups on sheep that need grips, if possible. The more they learn to work sheep calmly, the less you'll have to worry about gripping in general.

[stockdogranch]

If you can, don't work your pups on sheep that need grips, if possible. The more they learn to work sheep calmly, the less you'll have to worry about gripping in general.

 

Yes. I would add, too, that a young pup will grab some wool on occasion as they learn who they are in relation to the stock. I never worry about that. But if the pup likes to hang on and go for a ride, then I make sure that I am in a position to not let that happen, without a lot of yelling or correcting, just blocking it from happening. I also teach the young ones to go into close quarters to bring sheep out very early on, by just doing chores, as soon as they understand to go around them to gather them and have a reliable lie down. That way, the pup gets comfortable in these situations and learns to grip when needed (this usually means they hit heels as they move around the perimiter of the small space, or if one is facing and challenging, then a nose). I do teach them a hit command, but as they continue to grow and learn, I leave the gripping to their discretion--they are usually in a situation to read the stock (because they are closer) better than I am. They then seem to use the grip as their last line of defense, using eye, presence, and walking up first. I've even seen a lovely (almost slow motion) progression from eye and walking up (stock doesn't move), then a "curly lip" (showing teeth) (stock still doesn't move), to finally a nice, clean nose shot. The thing is then, as I think Becca pointed out, that the dog needs to hold ground, but allow the stock to turn and leave. The dog should not continue gripping/harassing.

Anna

[Lenajo]

The best advice I've been given and use every day now is to make the work make sense to the pup. Don't try to make things happen, set up the stock to make the pup want to do what you ask. I.e. rather than waving sticks and flapping arms to make a pup go right, instead push the sheep over there a bit so the pup has a reason to go right. Then you add the word as he does, and an ironclad assocation with "what the boss says always makes sense and helps me control the sheep". The same for the down, the walk in, etc.

 

Other advice I've found of value:

 

~ let the pup take charge of his sheep. When he's right, *get out of his way and let him work*.

 

~ don't be obsessed with patterns. There is no reason the skills (outrun, drive, flank etc) have to be taught in any order. If the pup wants to drive quietly, work with that. What the pup presents with each day is what is on his mind to learn - work with him, not against him.

 

~ don't work though fear periods, first heats. They will present "odd" behaviors during those time that will go away if you don't make an issue of "fixing" them

 

~ know your bloodline. There are some lines, and dogs, that will progress greatly until a year, then benefit from a few months off. Never be afraid to back off a bit and come back later at something that's seeming an issue on a pup.

[juliepoudrier]

How do you walk that fine line between letting the dog know cheap shots are not allowed but gripping when the sheep are being aggressive is a good thing?

 

Liz,

I agree with Becca and Anna that it is paramount not to try and start your pups on sheep that require (or incite) gripping. That's just setting up a problem from the start. Appropriate dog-broke sheep shouldn't give a pup a reason to grip, which means you can do some correcting if necessary. One thing I do with any dog (trained or untrained) that's gripping inappropriately (for example, has grabbed and is hanging on) is give a "lie down" command. Then if the dog doesn't respond and let go (after all, it would have to let go to lie down), the correction that follows is for disobeying the "lie down" rather than for the actual grip (in the dog's mind). This is the easiest way to make sure you don't inadvertantly remove all grip through corrections for gripping. That said, when I started Pip and all he wanted to do was pull wool, I did use a standard voice correction (aaahhht!) and then would shush him on around so that letting go and continuing on around the sheep was its own reward. He got away with some of it, but by not getting angry and really getting on him for it (and putting him up for a bit to mature) we got past that without having to do a lot of correcting and risking overcorrecting.

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

One thing I do with any dog (trained or untrained) that's gripping inappropriately (for example, has grabbed and is hanging on) is give a "lie down" command. Then if the dog doesn't respond and let go (after all, it would have to let go to lie down), the correction that follows is for disobeying the "lie down" rather than for the actual grip (in the dog's mind).

 

What a COOL way to think of it! That makes so much sense. And, duh, while I usually DO lie them down in such a situation, I never looked at it that way. Thanks!

Anna