PSmitty Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 I finally got a DVD of Jack's first time on sheep from back in December and had a chance to really look at what I missed the first time around. He did pretty good, considering he's a mix. Or so I thought...he circled, changed directions, watched the sheep (but there was plenty of wheeee going on). And then I was fishing around here and came across a video that Luisa posted of a pit bull "herding" (yes, I used that word on purpose). Now, the pb was circling the sheep and changing directions, but I can see now that he's not working the sheep. So, that leads me to wonder if Jack's experience wasn't pretty much the same? So, I'd love to have something to compare it to...to see a dog that is really working vs chasing sheep around, the first time out. (or if you don't have a video, just some helpful hints of what to look for is appreciated!) I hope that makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Every dog is so different- it is *really* hard to do any comparing. I think what is more important is sustained interest, and a feeling of the dog progressing- which they won't with just prey drive, as you continue in your training. Your trainer should also be a font of information on this. If you like, you can post the dvd of Jack and we can give you our arm chair quarterback sense of what he is doing - of course with the caveat, that it was his first time, and that means very little Julie ps: I believe every dog does well when with sheep for the first time if they have sustained interest, and are not just blindly running around.... Sort of like a kindergartener making that first ash tray I finally got a DVD of Jack's first time on sheep from back in December and had a chance to really look at what I missed the first time around. He did pretty good, considering he's a mix. Or so I thought...he circled, changed directions, watched the sheep (but there was plenty of wheeee going on). And then I was fishing around here and came across a video that Luisa posted of a pit bull "herding" (yes, I used that word on purpose). Now, the pb was circling the sheep and changing directions, but I can see now that he's not working the sheep. So, that leads me to wonder if Jack's experience wasn't pretty much the same? So, I'd love to have something to compare it to...to see a dog that is really working vs chasing sheep around, the first time out. (or if you don't have a video, just some helpful hints of what to look for is appreciated!) I hope that makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-III Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Let me start by saying that I am a novice and the my dog Rory was introduced to sheep this past weekend. (No video and only a couple pictures because I was so focused on watching her to see what she would do) But based on my conversations with the trainer I will add a couple of comments from what he told me. 1) Dont expect anything the first time other than "chasing", if we get beyond chasing good. 2) Depending on the age of the pup, dont expect her to do the same thing in her 1st 2nd or even 3rd visit. She may be great one day, scared of sheep the next and then who only knows what the third time. After a bit the natural desire to work or not to work should begin to show. Just because the dog isnt a natural doesnt meant it cant be a great herding dog. 3) The most important thing is that the pup have a positive experience its first couple of times on stock to build confidence and fuel the desire to work. I am sure that there was more, but I lost it in the excitement. It sounds like a good sign that Jack was thinking about working even if just for a bit and then build upon each experience. I know that I cant wait until Rory goes out again and based on her expression afterwords I know that she is ready anytime. Anyway, just a few thoughts on what was told to me this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moss Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 I have a video of Moss taken when he had only been on sheep a handful of times, so don't know if that is the kind of thing you are looking for? If so, here it is ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXkd-EXcJfA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 The most important thing is that the pup have a positive experience its first couple of times on stock to build confidence and fuel the desire to work. If I weren't dashing out the door to get to work (yuck), I'd say more. But this quote is REALLY important and so very true! Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 If you like, you can post the dvd of Jack and we can give you our arm chair quarterback sense of what he is doing Hah! I don't think I have skin thick enough for that! Seriously, I have no way to get the video on my computer, so that's a no go. I do agree that every dog is different, so comparing might not be a good idea. J-III, Thanks for that. Sounds like you have a good trainer. Rory is much, much younger than Jack was his first look-see, so I don't know if the expectations change with age? Totally agree that most important is a good, positive experience, and that is one thing I know we accomplished Jack's first time. Kirsti, Thank you for the video. Moss is awesome! Obviously much further along than the stage I'm looking for, though. When we went the first time, the trainer said "we're looking for two things this first time out: for the dog to watch the sheep and circle the sheep". Now, that may have been watered down for the KC, mostly not border collie crowd, though, I'm thinking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Kirsty, may I share this video with people on another board where I'm discussing how corrections are used in sheepdog training? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
campdoorag Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Kirsty, may I share this video with people on another board where I'm discussing how corrections are used in sheepdog training? Kirsty, thanks for the link! i thoroughly enjoyed it and also the other links. good luck. Rebecca, where is the other board in your discussions of corrections for sheepdog training? i am new to this, but most in awe to the practice as i have shown cutting horses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 I'm using sheepdog training as an example of when corrections DON'T necessarily result in a shut-down, learned helplessness state. So it's not really about sheepdogs, but about training. I'll PM you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Although you're being quite clear, persuasive, and undeniably right, one poster in particular cannot acknowlege the possibility that what you're saying is even feasible. Yea though she admittedly knows nothing about "herding". I'll chime in if I have two seconds to rub togther. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bo Boop Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Hah! I don't think I have skin thick enough for that! Seriously, I have no way to get the video on my computer, so that's a no go. I do agree that every dog is different, so comparing might not be a good idea. J-III, Thanks for that. Sounds like you have a good trainer. Rory is much, much younger than Jack was his first look-see, so I don't know if the expectations change with age? Totally agree that most important is a good, positive experience, and that is one thing I know we accomplished Jack's first time. Kirsti, Thank you for the video. Moss is awesome! Obviously much further along than the stage I'm looking for, though. When we went the first time, the trainer said "we're looking for two things this first time out: for the dog to watch the sheep and circle the sheep". Now, that may have been watered down for the KC, mostly not border collie crowd, though, I'm thinking? Thanks for that. Sounds like you have a good trainer. Yep he does Same trainer I have and where Stella came from. I hear Rory did really well too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Laura, I'm still plugging along at it. I just came in from working with Cord and Ben and the ideas keep popping in my head. You are definitely welcome, as another experienced voice. The person in question is someone who needs everything to be one way or another. I'll never persuade her, but I think others are enjoying the give and take and a peek into another way of looking at dog training. I have a dog here who will have his second time on sheep shortly, if we can get the round pen repaired. I can tell you what happened the first time I put him on sheep. He was whipped into a frenzy while he watched puppies. I could have waited until I fixed that outside on leash before taking him in (pulling the band-aid off slowly), but I had a chance to get him over to Karen's for full time training, if he looked ready to go. So I chose pulling the band-aid off fast. We went in and out of the gate a few times until I thought he seemed to remember I was in the same universe with him, then I let him off - but he just had "That Look" in his eye and I whacked the stick in front of him to forestall a sheep takedown. Unfortunately, I had poor aim and the stick actually made contact on the tip of his nose. Doh! He sulked for the rest of the session, though I got him to go around a few times. I can tell he's forgiven me since then, lol. Unfortunately a high wind blew a large branch down on the round pen so I haven't been able to play with him since I noticed his taking interest in the sheep again. The round pen is on Patrick's PrePicnic list so I should get the chance soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Laura, I'm still plugging along at it. I just came in from working with Cord and Ben and the ideas keep popping in my head. You are definitely welcome, as another experienced voice. The person in question is someone who needs everything to be one way or another. I'll never persuade her, but I think others are enjoying the give and take and a peek into another way of looking at dog training. No doubt about it. If this person were to acknowlege any other possibilities in training their entire foundation would crumble. Can't have that. I had two secs to spare... for what it's worth. You're right - the others are enjoying it, and I suspect learning quite a bit. I'm glad you posted it. I hope someday to be able to communicate it even a tenth as beautifully as you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Paula, sorry... we hijacked. You're always welcome to look again at the vids of Nick from a few months ago, but they were really a good bit removed from his first few times on sheep, so probably not really very useful for showing you what you're really looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Paula, sorry... we hijacked. You're always welcome to look again at the vids of Nick from a few months ago, but they were really a good bit removed from his first few times on sheep, so probably not really very useful for showing you what you're really looking for. No worries! I glanced at that thread on the other board. Looks interesting and when I get I chance, I'm anxious to read it in depth. I will go back and look at the Nick videos, but you're right. I was pretty much talking about first exposure. I think it really doesn't matter, I'm over thinking things, anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moss Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Kirsty, may I share this video with people on another board where I'm discussing how corrections are used in sheepdog training? Of course you can (Can you tell me where the other Board is, so I can have a nosey?) Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moss Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Kirsty, thanks for the link! i thoroughly enjoyed it and also the other links. good luck.Rebecca, where is the other board in your discussions of corrections for sheepdog training? i am new to this, but most in awe to the practice as i have shown cutting horses. Thanks Glad you enjoyed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness_bc Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 Well here is our one and only (well ok nearly we have been only 3 times since) go on sheep. <Thats only the relatively good bit of our first lesson and its not very good LOL> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-III Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 I dont have any videos, but here are the three pictures I did manage to take. The first one is Rory in "what are these big doggies and why dont they want to play?" Then she figured out that this was a lesson and started to figure things out. And finally she is thinking and moving all together. (for at least a few minutes) Granted we were only working with 2 sheep to start off with and only for about five minutes in each of our two sessions, but overall I think she did well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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