Practicing on primarily inanimate objects?

[ClickMeBC]

I didn't know herding instinct could be this intense at such a young age. Quynn knows what he's doing without knowing what he's doing, and this isn't even livestock.

 

Lately I've been kicking soccer balls and bigger kick-balls around for him for some exercise, and he almost instantly began giving the ball the "eye", making "outruns", clapping to the ground and stalking, and seems to want to keep the balls between him and myself. He'll even "work" the ball from 20-30 feet away, weaving back and forth, dropping, and making wide outruns as I kick it around. He's three months old!

 

Is it a good idea to promote this? He's obessed with herding the balls and for now he's taken it on as his "job". :roll: Every time we go outside, after he eliminates, he heads strait over to the ball, walks up on it and drops about 10 feet away from it, staring intently at it until I make it move. I had this weird notion that maybe I could attach commands to his natural behaviors...?? Or would this knock down real livestock on his list of priorities in the future? What are the advantages and disadvantages to allowing a pup to "work" a ball?

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

I know ball playing is a popular activity with Border Collies and owners alike, but I really don't care to do it with my dogs. I have one ball obsessed and two ball "friendly" dogs (and a few so-so about it) , the main difference is that I encouraged the obsessed dog to fetch and only sparingly did it with the other two. Only one of those dogs is the resident "couch warmer" , the other two are decent working dogs. Probably a coincidence that the ball-obsessed dog is the sheepdog washout, and I know good working dogs that are also ball-obsessed but I personally don't care to do it.

 

My reasons are this- it promotes neurotic , "unthinking" behavior and encourages sticky behavior. It also encourages reactive behavior as opposed to thoughtful movement of livestock.

 

I am not saying don't play ball with your dog- but it is only play and aside from some "tricks" you can teach them, not at all useful in general. Sheepdog training should be taught in relationship to how sheep react to the dogs movement- they are not a static item like a ball.

[juliepoudrier]

Sheepdog training should be taught in relationship to how sheep react to the dogs movement- they are not a static item like a ball.

I think this is a very important statement. Working stock is about the interaction *between* the dog and the stock, and that can't be replicated with inanimate objects like balls. I do play ball with my dogs (carefully, because these dogs are so intense that they *will* hurt themselves, and since I can't afford to have injured working dogs, I try not to let it get too intense), but it's just a fun activity, not something that's used to translate to stockwork (um, and watch out if we're walking anywhere that has ball-like objects, like pine cones or gum tree balls--try taking a walk with multiple dogs repeatedly throwing such things at your feet!). My pups don't really play ball at all and instead try to "work" the older dogs who are playing ball, which I also try to discourage. At any rate, if he's already so obsessed that he can't easily be called off I think I'd lay off on the intense ball play and spend some time teaching tricks or other activities that require him to think/use his mind.

 

That said, I know there are people who have taught directional commands (flanks) by using inanimate objects, but I think it's a tricky thing to do and get it right so the dog isn't confused when introduced to stock.

 

J.

[Moss]

That said, I know there are people who have taught directional commands (flanks) by using inanimate objects, but I think it's a tricky thing to do and get it right so the dog isn't confused when introduced to stock.

 

J.

 

My dogs fool around with a ball occasionally too, but I don't like them to get too obsessed over it, so we don't play with it all the time.

 

As has already been said, I don't think adding commands to your dog when it is "working" a ball will help when training on stock, and may indeed confuse your dog.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Two reasons I no longer teach my baby dogs to play with balls, etc: First, it encourages a mindset where the dog isn't really thinking. It's not only a bad habit, it's mightily additictive to the dog. It's like a narcotic to a Border Collie to have a Real Job where there's no pressure at all. For some dogs, future training will always take second best to that feeling. Thus, I now wait until the pup is well and truly "hooked" on working before introducing toys. They don't even play with other dogs, to avoid "dog working".

 

Second, the danger of injury is very real with these dogs. They are extremely intense, have a low pain threshhold when working, and tend to find exactly the right way to do something and then do the same thing over and over, putting huge amounts of stress on growing joints. Border Collie puppy joints weren't made to endure the stress of repetivitive activities of any kind - they need as long as possible of gentle activity to develop and strengthen the soft tissues that make their joints so flexible adn athletic. Think of the hammering her shoulders and elbows are taking as you play right now, and remember that she has very little in the way of mature connective tissue cushioning all that repetitive motion.

 

I know it's really fun to see this, but three months is certainly way, way too young for this kind of stuff.

 

Oh, (and I really, really hate being the wet blanket here but forewarned is forearmed) chasing the ball around, even the neat Border Collie mannerisms she's using to attempt to control the ball's motion - it all means nothing in relation to her actual style or ability on stock. My Ben dog looks really "stylish" when he's playing with a soccer ball, crouching down, walking up - I can even direct him to take a step at a time. But he has no style at all on sheep. No eye, zero - he looks like a Rough collie out there. He's a decent working dog but it's been hellacious for me as a novice to try to develop his feel for the sheep, for him, basically.

 

I only say this because sometimes people will try to assess their dog's "working ability" based on what they do around toys, assuming that it transfers directly when it doesn't at all. You have to work your dog to tell for sure what she'll do on sheep. Again, I only mention this not to run down your pup or undermine your excitement, but for those who might be thinking, "Wow, there's an example of a pup that's not working and you can already see her ability, and you don't even need sheep!"

 

I'd start right now with this pup doing brainwork, lots of mental training, because she's most likely exactly the type that will tune you out when she's at the magic age of adolescence - unless you've put a lot of work into reinforcing your role in her life. And that's fine, because you've got to keep her busy, right? What better way?

[borderlicious]

Rebecca is right about the ball "herding". I have a dog that displays an insane amount of "style" when we play ball. He crouches down, gives the ball his most withering stare and dares it to move. Around moving livestock (he's only been on ducks and geese thus far) he loses all that and has two speeds - lie down and galloping. All the practice in the world on balls wouldn't change the way he acts on stock.

[Shetlander]

Is it a good idea to promote this? He's obessed with herding the balls and for now he's taken it on as his "job". :roll: Every time we go outside, after he eliminates, he heads strait over to the ball, walks up on it and drops about 10 feet away from it, staring intently at it until I make it move.

 

I can't speak to the working side of this question since Quinn has had a grand total of 9 lessons on sheep. However, wanting to avoid obsessive behaviors that you sometimes hear of in the breed, I was very careful right from the start about not letting him have free access to his retrieving toys. We've always played fetch and it is his second favorite thing to do (a distant second compared to working sheep), but when we finish a game, I always put the ball/Frisbee/throw toy away. I don't want him to follow me around with a ball the way some dogs will do. Now, this doesn't keep him from staring holes up at the toys where they are stored in the garage but his opportunities to do this are limited and he can only "bug" me about a game if I'm there to see him looking at his toys.

[ClickMeBC]

I appreciate the input, everyone. I was bewildered at his finesse and intensity with these balls and simply wondered...I had an iffy feeling about it from the start, though.

 

I can't say yet how he'll do on sheep, but with his constantly widening outruns, weaving, dropping and staring, he's quite impressive with a ball.